Survival Suits

[AntarcticPilot]

If you are immersed in a suit with finite thermal resistance, you will lose heat to the sea.
But your body a) generates heat all the time you are alive, and b) can lose a certain amount of heat before you suffer too much.

Divers have been lost at sea in drysuits for considerable numbers of hours and been OK, long after they'd have been dead in wetsuits or oilskins.

I don't think it's helpful to say 'these things are no good', it would be more useful to look at exactly how useful they are.
It depends on how cold the water is of course.
But the right suit might make the difference between floating about for an hour and being annoyed at how long it takes to get rescued, vs dying.
I believe I know a boat angler whose fairly cheap insulated overall thingy made the difference between needing to warm up in the pub and, at best, hospital. Worth a thought for winter dinghy and RIB outings?

It's like a lot of other safety gear, if you have a clear view of what calamity is going to befall you, it's easy to see what will help.
What we need of course is a yacht under us and someone to make the tea.

I wasn't saying they are no good - they are excellent for what they are designed for; I hope I was pointing out the limits of their design, which is that although providing excellent short-term (up to many hours) protection, they don't provide long-term protection. I have used them in circumstances where it would have been unthinkable not to have used them - Antarctic waters in an open RIB with the potential for people to be tipped into the water unexpectedly - the boat ALSO carried a liferaft; the survival suits were for the chance of being tipped into the water, and recovery by the boat from which you started was to be expected. But they are not and cannot be a substitute for a liferaft, which is intended to protect for a longer period, and to protect the occupants from immersion, wind-chill and from the sun's rays (not usually a factor in our latitudes!)

 

[dom]

Many thanks to Antarctic Pilot and others who really know about offshore cold water survivability. Like many others I have plenty of experience falling into cold water, but only from dinghies and that's a totally different ballgame - a few seconds/minutes in choppy, not truly nasty water.

These suits make more and more sense the more one thinks about it.

 

[vyv_cox]

I see that the ad claims they can be put on in two minutes. It used to take me considerably longer than that to put on the ones we flew out to North Sea platforms in - more like 10 minutes I would guess.

 

[pmagowan]

I see that the ad claims they can be put on in two minutes. It used to take me considerably longer than that to put on the ones we flew out to North Sea platforms in - more like 10 minutes I would guess.

On 'The Deadliest Catch' they seem to have to pass a test that they can put them on in 2 minutes (IIRC) in order to keep fishing.

 

[yachtorion]

So the summary so far seems to be...

• These suits are brilliant kit.
• We should probably all be carrying them whether we have a raft or not.
• They don't do the same job as a liferaft.
• If you can't carry a liferaft, they're a heck of a lot better than nothing.
• If you carry a PLB and a proper LJ, then in all but the worst conditions they should keep you alive long enough for coastal rescue.
• We'd all rather still be on the boat, and it's still worth thinking about foam etc to keep it afloat, ala the standard eboat mod for example.

My next boat is going to be a trailer sailor and I don't think a liferaft is going to be practical - so I will buy the suits! If I get caught out in a proper storm I did something very wrong... so hopefully if I do lose a boat then I won't reach the problem of spray in the face beyond what the sprayhood on my LJ can handle!

If I'm going to cross channel it etc I ought to carry the liferaft still.

 

[rob2]

If it's anything like getting into a drysuit then if you do it in 2 minutes you'll need to sit down for 10 minutes to recover! I would think a lot depends on the kind of boat and the kind of sailing, but either the survival suit or a dry suit makes sense for winter racing where one could reasonably expect one of the fleet to pick you up within a short time.

Rob.

 

[bbg]

Personally, if I had a boat where a life raft was impractical, instead of spend the money on one of these suits I would spend some money on a proper dry suit. Like an Ursuit.

You can spend the whole day in it and as long as you are wearing thermal layers underneath and a LJ on top it will provide really good life saving support. It has the huge advantage of being worn, so it would be useful in accidental overboard situations.

 

[yachtorion]

I like the dry suit idea. I think the difference with the immersion suits is they include sufficient insulation without worrying too much about what you are wearing beneath, and they include a lot of additional buoyancy? But that could be counteracted by the useless-unless-worn thing...

One part of my initial reason for posting this thread as much as anything was a feeling of unease about how many small boats tend to go out without much in the way of safety gear... I've definitely found the results interesting and there obviously isn't any need to go to sea even in a small boat on a budget without having some kind of basic backup plan.

Much thanks from me to AntarcticPilot and all the other contributors.

 

[lw395]

I have two drysuits.
One is for scuba diving, the other is for dinghy racing and get used in RIBs a fair bit.
You can get a good surface drysuit for £250 (perhaps a bit more), which will stand a far amount of wear. I'd guess my last one lasted 200 races or so?
Definitely worth a thought.
Typhoon are good.

 

[lw395]

Are quick don survival / immersion suits deadliest catch style a superior life raft alternative for coastal craft?

http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.c...-PW-LJ-.html?gclid=COjvyt6Sy8kCFQb3wgod18ULCQ

These look like 'one time suits' not for regular use?
For not much more, get a proper drysuit and use it in the dinghy or maybe:
http://www.aspli.com/products/938/fladen-flotation-suit-rescue-system-one-piece

Whether or not you feel the need to have a liferaft for the type of boating you do is a totally separate question IMHO.

 

[lw395]

I always thought that even a mid-range modern wetsuit is waayyyyy better than those survival suits!

As a surfer I can happily spend hours in the water in the depths of winter with a wetsuit on, not sure I'd be as confident in those suits. I just keep an old wetsuit in the boat.

Wetsuits keep you warm so long as you are active.
As soon as you are tired you are ****ed.

 

[GrahamM376]

A badly fitting dry or survival suit is dangerous. A girl who was diving with us had on a borrowed dry suit which was too large for her and she wound up surfacing unexpectedly feet first when the legs filled with air. Had she not been using scuba gear, she would have drowned as impossible to keep her head above water and that was in smooth quarry waters. The advertised survival suits tend to be in limited sizes so most are likely to be baggy and certainly (in my opinion) not safe without a life jacket.

 

[Tintin]

Having recently spent a lot of time in a Musto HPX drysuit in the Southern Ocean, let me offer a couple of observations.

Layers underneath are important, but I found that while thermals and fleeces kept me warm for hours on end when on deck not doing a lot (helming, trimming etc...), as soon as any effort was required (sail changes, lots of grinding, spin drops) I got very wet from sweat very quickly and very very hot, almost to the level of exhaustion. Then a prolonged period doing little again negated the layers because I got very very cold.

I did find that partially inflating the dry suit (Mustos has an inflation tube) helped as it stopped the dry suit outer contacting the sweat damped thermal layers and transferring heat away from my body.

In the end, for bow work in heavy seas, I wore one thermal underneath as I found I still got cold, but not as bad as when lots of layers were sweat drenched.

Another observation on dry suits is that they should be purged of air. This used to be part of BSAC dry suit training (maybe still is). If you go in the oggin with lots of air in it, head first, the air fills the legs and stops you getting your head above the water. It surprises me that this is not covered in any sailing drysuit manual.

 

[JumbleDuck]

• Can don well before abandonment becomes necessary and still operate

Doesn't that also mean

• Must don well before abandonment becomes necessary and still operate

The very few situations in which liferafts have been used for yachts almost all seem to involve great urgency. Is there going to be time to put on a survival suit?

 

[GrahamM376]

Another observation on dry suits is that they should be purged of air. This used to be part of BSAC dry suit training (maybe still is).

AFAIK dry suit use is still part of the pool training, before using on dives.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Edit - having said that, I do not think it is essential to carry a life raft for most coastal cruising. But if anyone thinks that "if the worst happens" they will just be floating along happily like an otter on its back they are in for a rude and, in anything other than benign conditions, possibly fatal surprise.

The Victorians had this all sorted out.

As I recall there was another version in which the inventor made a channel crossing, propelled by a small midriff-mounted sail and smoking a cigar as he went.

 

[bbg]

Having recently spent a lot of time in a Musto HPX drysuit in the Southern Ocean, let me offer a couple of observations.

Layers underneath are important, but I found that while thermals and fleeces kept me warm for hours on end when on deck not doing a lot (helming, trimming etc...), as soon as any effort was required (sail changes, lots of grinding, spin drops) I got very wet from sweat very quickly and very very hot, almost to the level of exhaustion. Then a prolonged period doing little again negated the layers because I got very very cold.

I did find that partially inflating the dry suit (Mustos has an inflation tube) helped as it stopped the dry suit outer contacting the sweat damped thermal layers and transferring heat away from my body.

In the end, for bow work in heavy seas, I wore one thermal underneath as I found I still got cold, but not as bad as when lots of layers were sweat drenched.

Another observation on dry suits is that they should be purged of air. This used to be part of BSAC dry suit training (maybe still is). If you go in the oggin with lots of air in it, head first, the air fills the legs and stops you getting your head above the water. It surprises me that this is not covered in any sailing drysuit manual.

Welcome back. Brazil-South Africa-Australia?

I completely agree with your observation about buoyancy in a drysuit / survival suit. IMHO it is essential, if one is wearing a drysuit or survival suit, also to wear a lifejacket.

As for comfort in a drysuit, I spent a lot of time (on two occasions, at least 3 straight days) in an Ursuit

https://www.ursuit.com/en/ursuit-gemino-operative1

I didn't have the issues you had, but I was not in the Southern Ocean. One three-day stretch was heading down the Portuguese coast in conditions that became chilly at night, and another stretch was upwind off the coast of Brazil, so ambient temperature quite warm. I can imagine that if you need enough layers to stay warm in the Southern Ocean you will overheat under vigorous activity.

 

[thinwater]

Agree with both. A survival suit that will effectively protect against lengthy immersion isn't and can't be breathable; and of course, when immersed even if it was breathable in air, it won't be in water.

There does appear to be two varieties of "survival suit" - one a comparatively light duty suit that allows normal activity, but at the expense of survivability under total immersion conditions - suitable for evil conditions on deck, with short periods of immersion but with periods when not immersed. The other - which I agree with bbg is the one most of us think of when considering survival suits in this context - will protect against long-term immersion, but at the expense of mobility and preventing much physical activity.

Hmm.... Seems I've been in 0C water for long periods in a dry suit. Over an hour many times. quite comfortable.

Regarding sweating when working hard, I have an Ocean Rodeo suit with a built-in jacket that allows breaking the neck seal while still protected by the jacket. I use it a lot kayaking (heavy exertion) and have not found it hot (below 12C), as well as using it as deck wear in cold rough weather. But over 12C you're gonna cook for sure. The correct layers are critical, and once donned, hard to adjust.

But if we're comparing this to an immersion suit....

To me, the advantage of a dry suit is this; the greatest risk is not sinking but MOB, and neither an immersion suit or raft are going to help you one little bit.

 

[lw395]

....To me, the advantage of a dry suit is this; the greatest risk is not sinking but MOB, and neither an immersion suit or raft are going to help you one little bit.

Possibly the biggest risk is in harbour in a tender, and a warm buoyant suit might help quite a lot?

 

[bbg]

Possibly the biggest risk is in harbour in a tender, and a warm buoyant suit might help quite a lot?

Survival suits are designed for keeping you warm for 6 hours plus. In a tender I would be happy with a lifejacket. If the weather was bad enough for foulies, my drysuit plus a lifejacket would keep me dry, reasonably warm and floating face up.

True survival suits are things you wear when your boat is sinking or if you are going to get picked up by helicopter or have to transfer to a freighter that is picking you up. Believe me, they are not comfortable to wear, and not something you slip into for a trip in the tender.