Survival suits - popular amongst yachtmen?

[bikedaft]

Apparently the average time a fit individual can hold their breath after plunging into cold water is 5 seconds! This is due to the bodies cold shock response. So to have any realistic chance of exiting an immersed helicopter everyone has to wear immersion suits.

To me this means that if you have to jump unprotected into a cold sea the priority is to maintain a clear airway at least until the cold response has passed.

however you can markedly reduce this effect by swimming in cold water at least once per year. ok not everyone likes sea swimming, but once a year would be enough to stop the massive hyperventilation/sped up heart rate on entry to cold water in an emergency.

see "sea survival" by tipton - no connection - an excellent summary of the physiology/techniques/basically what to do/not do etc etc of water emergencies.

personally i think we should all read it about once per year also (as well as that new year's day swim )

back to the OP - i have a dry suit i leave on board, less than 5 mins to put on in a hurry, will go on top of ordinary clothes, or on top of a wooly bear (one piece thermal romper suit)

 

[oldbilbo]

serious question...
not wishing to take the thread into the 'lounge' area of discussion, how do these 'pee-tube' things fit etc..?

On the Musto kit I have, there is fitted a ~4" wide x ~8" long tube of thin waterproof material which rolls up to provide a seal, and unrolls to provide easy access to one's own 'tube'. When this is rolled away, it lives behind a short Velcro'd flap. Truly a convenience feature.

I worked for years in RAF drysuits - clumsy, uncomfortable but effective - and completed the various Sea Survival courses in 'em, too. I've used a Helly Hansen drysuit for years that went around the world on one of the 'Whitbreads'. That was fairly lightweight, non-breathing and without 'convenience' features.

The Musto product is streets ahead in wearability, comfort and functionality. Have a look at one, next time you're near a stockist.

As for 'air trapped in the legs', one does need to be trained - or at the very least, briefed - on how to manage such a 'survival aid' by venting in the event of it/you being put to the serious test of being in the water, dependent on your own know-how and resources. This is a serious item of kit for a serious problem. It warrants serious prior learning.

 

[Ross D]

The problem with a drysuit is that if it is not done up properly and you end up in the drink you will drown. There are countless reports of drownings or near drownings of divers who have fallen off dive boats with their drysuits unzipped. The classic image of a boat of divers with their drysuits unzipped and pulled over their heads for a bit of ventilation is a recipe for disaster. You cannot swim or keep your head above water in a drysuit that has filled up.

Therefore when sailing you have the choice of wearing your drysuit all the time just in case you sink. Or trying to put it on once you have started sinking when there are far more important things to be doing. I have been drysuit diving for years and would not want to try and strip off my foulies, boots and lifejacket (not a good idea when you are sinking) then get into a drysuit in the cockpit, in the time it takes to sink a small yacht, particularly if the rest of the crew are doing the same.

Big ships, warships, cruise liners etc take a relatively long time to sink so you have the chance of putting something on.

 

[lw395]

The problem with a drysuit is that if it is not done up properly and you end up in the drink you will drown. There are countless reports of drownings or near drownings of divers who have fallen off dive boats with their drysuits unzipped. .......

Countless?
As in lots or none?
How many last year, exactly?

A good point, but exaggeration does not really help.

 

[Greenheart]

I'm tempted to amuse contributors by posting a photo of myself in my twenty y/o wetsuit...I was slim then. Not now. If I were to take a photo, it would only be to prove that I could still get inside it, though I concede it might take 30mins...not easy in an emergency.

I recently saw one of those Barents Sea crab-fishing programmes, in which one of the chaps was busy smashing tonnes of ice from the boat's deck, when he slipped into the water. He was very quickly rescued, but seemed to be in less shock than his colleagues expected: they had reckoned that even two minutes in the water would kill him...

...so presumably the fishermen up there aren't necessarily dressed for immersion. Seems surprising, doesn't it, for a professional, accustomed to the probability of going overboard, in that climate? The programme was dated 2004, I think.

I was prepared to accept that this thread was my daft flight of fancy, instilled by the 1912 horror-story of being dunked in the April North Atlantic in nothing thicker than evening costume...

...but all these drysuit/wetsuit contributions have me believing that what I call survival suits, aren't necessarily impossibly cumbrous.

Considering how horrendously, intolerably cold I think the water in the English Channel is for eight months of each year, I'd feel bolder about low-season sailing, if even the worst that might happen, would be survivable by avoiding hypothermia...

...and in the same spirit with which drysuited dinghy-sailors compete comfortably in 'icicle' races, I reckon that that feeling of security could encourage many summer-only sailors to extend their seasons - making their boat-owning much cheaper, per day on board.

 

[Searush]

Doesn't fear do funny things to people?


If not duffers, won't drown.



In 40 years of sailing & 30 years of cruising I have never, ever felt the slightest need for a survival suit. WTF are you lot on? sailing in summer in temperate climes, even in the water survival are not that short, The chances of sinking are vanishingly small, & the shelter provided by a liferaft, even if you are soaking wet in sea water should be sufficient for you to last until the local RNLI lifeboat gets to you.

For those who doubt me, two dog walkers (father & son) were picked up from the Dee sands (of "Mary call the cattle home" fame) the other week after 2 hours in a rising tide after getting lost in fog. they were up to their necks when found (in normal outdoor clothing) & badly hypothermic, but both survived.

I may or may not have a wet suit on board, never a dry suit, but it's purely for leisure use, nothing to do with safety or survival. There are so many other things to do, like keeping a good watch, looking after rig, sails & engine, sensible passage planning, following colregs etc that will save you ever getting into the situation where a survival suit is needed.

 

[bbg]

...but all these drysuit/wetsuit contributions have me believing that what I call survival suits, aren't necessarily impossibly cumbrous.

survival suits like these (which is what I had) ARE impossibly cumbrous. If it isn't "impossibly cumbrous"' it isn't a survival suit.

Drysuits by Helly Hansen, Musto, Henry Lloyd, Ursuit etc are essentially normal foulies with cuff seals and a waterproof zip. People buy and wear those as foulies, not because they are scared of going into the drink. The fact that they would be better than foulies if you do go in the drink is a bonus - not the reason for buying them.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

I think you will find that almost all people who go aboard cruise ships neither drown nor freeze. You are probably much more likely to suffer a heart attack or slip and fall.

Personally, carrying a wetsuit for an event that is almost certain NOT to happen would annoy me no end. You can think of all kinds of things you could carry for unlikely events - e.g. defibrillator. I guess it is up to you to consider what level of safety you feel comfortable with.

Many German companies specify that their executives carry smoke hoods,the turkey roaster bag types, very small,compact and a life saver in a fire

 

[oldbilbo]

survival suits like these (which is what I had) ARE impossibly cumbrous. If it isn't "impossibly cumbrous"' it isn't a survival suit.

The Guy Cotton TPS suit here....




clickthroughforinfo

....IS impossibly cumbersome for routine use, even in heavy weather. It is HOT and exhausting; I raced for a week at Dinard and my crewmate wore one. After the first hour or so, he took it off and stowed it - permanently.

The Musto product, on the other hand, can be and is worn by many racing yachtsmen while on deck/on watch in heavy weather.





Clickittoreadmore

"....The HPX Ocean Drysuit made from a lighter more comfortable fabric is the ultimate suit for sailors looking to battle the worst elements on the planet, providing protection from wind, waves and rain in extreme conditions anywhere. Also, added safety should you become immersed in water. Developed in partnership with Volvo Ocean race and Vendée Globe sailors....."

 

[prv]

Do the 'abandon ship' suits have much actual insulation? Or are they just a thin waterproof 'membrane'?

They're neoprene, so have some inherent insulation. Not sure how thick; maybe 6mm as a complete guess having seen the demo one a few times but never handled them myself. The "semi-dry" wetsuit I had before going full drysuit, back when I was into diving as a teenager, was 16mm around the torso with 8mm arms and legs. The abandon ship suits would be much drier than that though, and also looser on most people, and are presumably intended to rely on clothing worn underneath for at least some of their insulation in cold conditions.

There are also on board a couple of sets of non-sealed buoyant warm coveralls, presumably similar to the Fladen fishing suits. They're part of the man-overboard kit - not for the casualty themselves but for the Bosun and Deckhand One who man the rescue boat. Since their job is to muster on the side-deck ASAP when the alarm goes off at any time of day or night, they might not be properly dressed for a small boat in mid-ocean - much better for Deckhand Three to deliver them an orange suit along with their helmets and lifejackets while the boat's being launched, than to have the boat crew down below hunting out the woolly pullies. The orange suits each come with a pair of carrier bags - you slip these over your boots so they slide down the legs of the coveralls instead of getting stuck

Pete

 

[Blueboatman]

Some great replies here after the initial ' why bother' thoughts

My two bobbits : not owning a liferaft nor epirb nor sat phone nor tracker back in the 1990s I bought a s/h rubberised dry suit when sailing to the west indies.

From what I had read about extended time adrift in dinghies or flooded yachts or having to swim ashore across a reef having drifted dismasted across an ocean (!) it might just make the difference.
Sold it on for what I paid, to someone off to the Pacific.

Next time I would carry something as part of diving gear.

 

[lw395]

...

...and in the same spirit with which drysuited dinghy-sailors compete comfortably in 'icicle' races, I reckon that that feeling of security could encourage many summer-only sailors to extend their seasons - making their boat-owning much cheaper, per day on board.

Absolutely.
We sail dinghies year round. A breathable drysuit and proper thermals means a nice day in February is just as good as a nice day in August. but a two hour race provides motivation and structure to the sailing, and keeps you busy. I've had some enjoyable sails on yachts and keelboats in Jan and Feb, but tend to keep it fairly local, around the Solent mostly. Crossing the channel seems like a long way in the darker months, but you can go to places like the Folly and see it full of pensioners instead of yotties...

 

[bbg]

Do the 'abandon ship' suits have much actual insulation? Or are they just a thin waterproof 'membrane'?

Probably already been answered generally, but there is an ISO standard that deals with this:

The class rules for the mini put it this way: A waterproof, survival suit with thermal protection in accordance with at least the standard ISO 15027-1, category A, or the SOLAS standard, guaranteeing a minimal thermal protection of 0,75 clo immerged.

One website describes it this way: One of the criteria of the ISO - 15027 - 1 Test is that the wearer must not loose more than 2° C of their body temperature during one hour in 5° C water.

They are too warm to do anything other than sit still in a cold environment. If you do more than that you sweat.

 

[Searush]

Absolutely.
We sail dinghies year round. A breathable drysuit and proper thermals means a nice day in February is just as good as a nice day in August. but a two hour race provides motivation and structure to the sailing, and keeps you busy. I've had some enjoyable sails on yachts and keelboats in Jan and Feb, but tend to keep it fairly local, around the Solent mostly. Crossing the channel seems like a long way in the darker months, but you can go to places like the Folly and see it full of pensioners instead of yotties...

All the sailors I know ARE pensioners . . .

 

[AntarcticPilot]

All the sailors I know ARE pensioners . . .

I joined that club recently too!

 

[ean_p]

I've thought about this while kitting our boat out for the future(distant) plans........ as a fun diver of 20 years mainly on north sea wrecks I initially thought of a dry suit.....it would need to be neoprene as membrane whether tri or fabric are not warm enough without substantial undergarments, nor inherently buoyant. Not too sure here on the newish materials liked crushed neoprene or the like but suspect they would lack either good insulation and or buoyancy, both of which I'd suggest are essential. Then I thought that any dry suit is out really as I've not worn a seal yet that would be comfortable for 10 hours or more, yes in an emergency you could easily cope but initial ideas were for a 'suit' that would be used as normal deck wear as and when. In addition most seals are suseptable to damage! That made me consider a semi of about 6mm..... I've sweated and had to open one of these while at 40+ mtrs in the north sea and would think them excellent for prolonging survival time plus been fully buoyant!.... But again not comfortable for common use..... the 'Fladden' suits though buoyant would have minimal insulation properties I suspect as water can flush through them in much the same way it flushes through wetsuits, so again both these where dismissed....that left me with the Solas survival suits...... useless for common usage but they have the advantage of been able to be donned within less that 90 seconds with most of your clothing on (another plus against dry and semi dry suits!), they're almost indestructible and they're buoyant even when flooded (as they will flood to some extent but no flushing so similar to a semi!) if constructed of neoprene at 6-7mm. Down sides are that as said above they're useless for day to day usage, they're bulky both in the boat (though quite light at about 3-4kg) and in the water...... the water bit would become a problem when trying to exit the water I suspect....you'll know this if you've ever tried to regain your dive boat in a flooded drysuit!! and as such entry into a raft or what ever may need assistance! the clincher for me in the end was that they're as cheap as chips if you shop around!....any other half reasonable suit except an old semi is going to cost you 3-400 upwards... that's my 2p's worth though I'll have my diving gear on board too so hopefully spoilt for choice!!

 

[Greenheart]

I've sweated and had to open one of these while at 40+ mtrs in the north sea...

Presumably, 40 meters below the surface?

That must be like the original sauna experience - too hot to too cold, in a fraction of a second!

 

[alant]

Doesn't fear do funny things to people?


If not duffers, won't drown.



In 40 years of sailing & 30 years of cruising I have never, ever felt the slightest need for a survival suit. WTF are you lot on? sailing in summer in temperate climes, even in the water survival are not that short, The chances of sinking are vanishingly small, & the shelter provided by a liferaft, even if you are soaking wet in sea water should be sufficient for you to last until the local RNLI lifeboat gets to you.

For those who doubt me, two dog walkers (father & son) were picked up from the Dee sands (of "Mary call the cattle home" fame) the other week after 2 hours in a rising tide after getting lost in fog. they were up to their necks when found (in normal outdoor clothing) & badly hypothermic, but both survived.

I may or may not have a wet suit on board, never a dry suit, but it's purely for leisure use, nothing to do with safety or survival. There are so many other things to do, like keeping a good watch, looking after rig, sails & engine, sensible passage planning, following colregs etc that will save you ever getting into the situation where a survival suit is needed.

You might want to join this club then!

http://www.outdoorswimmingsociety.com/index.php?p=swimming_tips&s=cold_water

This might help -

Today's water temperatures

Average sea temperature: 8,9°C
Maximum sea temperature: 11°C
Minimum sea temperature: 6°C

This month's water temperatures

Average sea temperature: 8,5°C
Maximum sea temperature: 11°C
Minimum sea temperature: 6°C

Long term water temperatures

Average sea temperature: 10,3°C
Maximum sea temperature: 15°C
Minimum sea temperature: 6°C

 

[alant]

All the sailors I know ARE pensioners . . .

There have been in the past, several reports of 'pensioners', going out to their swinging moorings in the Chichester area, who have gone missing, only to be found dead from hypothermia/drowning, having fallen in twixt transfer from their tender - all wearing a LJ.

 

[ean_p]

Presumably, 40 meters below the surface?

That must be like the original sauna experience - too hot to too cold, in a fraction of a second!

no not at all ...its quite controllable just a crack of the zip at the neck....of course there is always the central heating too when not working quite so hard as to work up a sweat !!!!!