Surveyor needed : Sardinia

[djeeke]

I am in the process of buying a catamaran based in Southern Sardinia.

I need to have an evaluation on the condition of the hulls (wet? blisters? etc...)
Can anyone suggest / recommend a surveyor in Sardinia or Italy ?

As our insurance company is also asking for a full out of water survey we need a surveyor who can produce a report in English.

I have tried contacting a few local marina's asking this but none has replied so-far.

I would prefer not to go this route to keep costs down but in case I am unable to find a suitable local guy, anyone has experience with flying over a surveyor ?

Thanks !

 

[Gufoblu]

Hi,
I live in Cagliari south Sardinia.
If you need a very good italian surveyor, I recommend Davide Zerbinati:

http://www.consulenti-tecnici.it/consulenti_show.php?id=2930

http://www.zerbinatidesign.com/

You may e-mail him for a quote; he is very kind and surely can produce a report in English.

 

[djeeke]

Thanks a lot !

I will contact Davide for a quote !

 

[djeeke]

Nobody else ?

Is it not common in Italy to have a survey done on a boat when buying it?

 

[haydude]

Nobody else ?
Is it not common in Italy to have a survey done on a boat when buying it?

No is not, you may, but Italians are very technically minded and:

1) they only trust themselves
2) if they spend large sums, either they now the yacht very well and have followed the history for years, or they purchase it from someone they know or if neither apply they buy new with warranty.

As a comparison a programme and magazine like Top Gear would not work in Italy, mostly based around impressions. The most popular car magazine in Italy, Quattroroute, for example runs cars for 100,000 kilometres and then take every bits apart to see what happened to engine, gears, take pictures, publish the results (as a curiosity you might want to know that Nissan's micra engine had the worst worn engine parts after 100,000 Km). In Italy it is all about technic and engineering.

In any case I guess a yacht purchased from an Italian would be the cleanest and in the best condition you might be able to find for its age, if recent, expensive and purchased from a private individual, not a charter.

 

[djeeke]

Thanks Haydude,

I assure you that if your findings are right, I have run into an exception, I have been in contact with the previous owner of the boat. It has been delivered in excellent condition to the current (Italian) owner four years ago... (confirmed by several sources)

It seems like during the four years of current ownership it has only left its mooring for an engine refit and antifouling job... It has not been prepared for a long period of non-usage and was left almost unattended...
For example, I must not explain the current condition of the 4 year old sails not removed from furler and boom...

I have found one other surveyor, but no response on my english-written e-mail... (I need an English written report for my insurance co)

Anyhow, my insurance company requires me to provide a survey report, is this not required by Italian insurance companies?
If not, could I, as a foreigner, subscribe to an Italian insurance?
After all , the boat is moored in Italy...

 

[Mehlmann]

[/QUOTE]


Anyhow, my insurance company requires me to provide a survey report, is this not required by Italian insurance companies?
If not, could I, as a foreigner, subscribe to an Italian insurance?
After all , the boat is moored in Italy...

[/QUOTE]

I think you might find that as with Spanish flagged yachts, I am a British surveyor working in Spain, that periodic surveys are a mandatory requirement in Italy. Here they have different surveyors for hull, machinery, below the water, rig etc. When they come to sell they have no need of another one if it is up to date and presumably the local insurance companies know the boat has been inspected.

If you get no joy from anyone your end i can always fly over!!!

all the best

 

[djeeke]

Thanks Mehlman,

I just checked the info I got on the boat, last survey has been done in 2003 by the previous owner...
No survey since...
As i said boat has not been looked after...

Anyway, thanks for the proposal, we might consider this too

 

[alan]

Surveyors : Sardinia

Djeeke,
I have just had a look in "Bolina" (Italian equivalent of PBO) and there are the following advertisements:

Dr. Guido M Matelli, Marine Surveyor. Cell: 3472370385. www.guidomatelli.it

Ing. Marco Cobau. Cell: 3483361088. ing.marco.cobau@iol.it

Davide Zerbinati As already posted

Filippo Zavatta. Cell. 3357238065.

From my experience having a survey is rarely done in Italy; most people just get a friend with more experience to have a look when the boat is lifted for inspection. In Italy there is the obligatory RINA inspection after 8 years from new and then every five years; but this is really a safety inspection and although performed with the boat out of the water it is not a survey as such.
Most people do not maintain their boats in Italy ....... they treat them like their cars, if it breaks they get someone to fix it as cheaply as possible. In the marina where I keep my boat there are 1000 boats and say 70% sailing baots and I see about 5 people who actually do any maintenance!!!!! So, I think it is a VERY good idea to get a proper survey performed on the boat that you are considering buying.

If I can help with translation or making a couple of phone calls then PM me ......... no problem.

Alan.

 

[Roberto]

Djeeke,
I have just had a look in "Bolina" (Italian equivalent of PBO) and there are the following advertisements:

Dr. Guido M Matelli, Marine Surveyor. Cell: 3472370385. www.guidomatelli.it

Ing. Marco Cobau. Cell: 3483361088. ing.marco.cobau@iol.it

Davide Zerbinati As already posted

Filippo Zavatta. Cell. 3357238065.

From my experience having a survey is rarely done in Italy; most people just get a friend with more experience to have a look when the boat is lifted for inspection. In Italy there is the obligatory RINA inspection after 8 years from new and then every five years; but this is really a safety inspection and although performed with the boat out of the water it is not a survey as such.
Most people do not maintain their boats in Italy ....... they treat them like their cars, if it breaks they get someone to fix it as cheaply as possible. In the marina where I keep my boat there are 1000 boats and say 70% sailing baots and I see about 5 people who actually do any maintenance!!!!! So, I think it is a VERY good idea to get a proper survey performed on the boat that you are considering buying.

If I can help with translation or making a couple of phone calls then PM me ......... no problem.

Alan.

also, having seen quite a few survey reports made by UK surveyors and others made by Italian surveyors, sorry to say they are not comparable in terms of content, details, suggestions, etc

I suggest you ask your insurance company for *their* accredited surveyors in your area, because there is the risk that the content of an average Italian survey translated into English might not be acceptable to a UK insurance company.

 

[djeeke]

Djeeke,
I have just had a look in "Bolina" (Italian equivalent of PBO) and there are the following advertisements:

Thank you very very much Alan !
Most kind of you !

also, having seen quite a few survey reports made by UK surveyors and others made by Italian surveyors, sorry to say they are not comparable in terms of content, details, suggestions, etc

I suggest you ask your insurance company for *their* accredited surveyors in your area, because there is the risk that the content of an average Italian survey translated into English might not be acceptable to a UK insurance company.

Thanks Roberto !

I am anyhow asking for a sample report (english written) which I check myself and then submit to my insurance broker for approval of format and content...

 

[michael_w]

After a disasterous "survey" done in Germany and a rather indifferent one done in The Netherlands, I'd always send my own man over. At least you know where he is if there are problems.

BTW If any one meets Gerd Kall of Flensburg please kick him in the bollox for me. Thank you.

 

[djeeke]

I'm pissed !

Forget about it guys !

I already confirmed to the owner I was going to buy the boat at asking price subject to survey of the structure (osmosis/delamination).

I just recieved an e-mail, the boat has been sold to someone else !

Needless to say I'm extremely disappointed...

Thank you all so much for the assistance provided !!!

Great to have you guys around !
Djeeke

 

[haydude]

I just recieved an e-mail, the boat has been sold to someone else !

Oh what a shame! Is always best to finalize the deal in writing but given the distance it is difficult.

Well now you could satisfy our curiosity and post a link to advert and details ...

 

[djeeke]

The seller has immediately removed the ad from the apolloduck website...
(Italian owner and English registered boat seems to be illegal stuff)
Anyway, I kept it and uploaded it : here is the ad !

Since you asked : Here is the story in short (relative, happy reading):

We saw an ad for a 33ft Ocean Winds Catamaran, listed at 45000Euro ...

By the ad we were led to believe the boat was in reasonable condition, It had recieved two brand new engines two years ago, it had just been out of the water for an antifouling, the deck had been repainted etc...

So off we went, booked a week in Sardinia to go and see the boat...

Where we saw the boat was in terrible shape !!!

Yes it did have new engines, only 3.5 hours, started by the owner without even checking the oil levels (and the boat had not left its mooring for ages)
Yes the deck had been repainted but without anti-skid (plain dangerous, extremely slippery when wet) so obviously the deck needed another repainting with anti-skid...
We went for a test-sail...
No wind instruments operational, display broken...
No boat speed on the log... Depth OK
The owner did not even know how to power up the compass (which seemed to function)
Autopilot not operational
radio non operational
Impossible to fully hoist the main sail (mast slide issue ?)
running rigging in terrible condition requires replacement
problems furling and unfurling the genoa
3 of the 4 deck selftailing winches were not operational, very old winches (Telo 160, 200 and 220) who will need replacement (the working one was already a newer winch, Lewmar 16, too small for this boat, main halyard winch is on the mast)
Sails in bad condition, they had been left on boom and forestay for 4 years instead of being taken of and stored inside... Genoa needed restitching, main maybe too but both sails required a big cleaning job...
Although the rigging had been replaced 4 years ago the attachments to the chainplates requires attention
Owner not aware how the GPS operates, I had my own GPS with me...
When we returned the owner gave me the keys so I could inspect the boat at my own pace.
Fuel smell inside the boat, port fuel tanks were sitting in diesel and apparently already since a long time (fuel hoses, repainting of bilge and fuel tanks
The boat needs a full electric rewiring, household wiring had been used, contacts corroded, log on nav station completely disconnected...
No separate house batteries installed (removed when the new engines were installed)
solar panels not operational
The rudder on starboard side was cracked (for how long?) and requires a big job done...
When we looked at the engines, they obviously looked nice but under the port engine there was water after the test sail, not before ! Where is the leak ???
The fridge not operational on 12V, not operational on gas, mains not tested...
Water gas heater burns, impossible to change the temperature setting.
All rubber gas hoses to be replaced.
Owner was unable to tell us how to light the oven so we don't know if this was functional (guess it's OK)
Owner was unable to explain how to operate the holding tank, head set to 'sea' position and I could not move it to the holding tank position (maybe by trying harder) so I guess these vanes require replacement, how to empty the holding tank ?
Windlass requires overhaul...
and so on...

Needless to say we were not so happy... Owner told us not to deduct all the repair costs from the asking price...

While we were in the harbour the boat got hit by a cowboy in a motor boat !!! We informed the owner who came to the boat and repaired the bow with a gelcoat repair kit left there by the previous owner, without proper cleaning/degreasing etc... We were astonished by his attitude, there were two witnesses on board of his boat when this happened and still he just did a quick and dirty fix...

Anyway, we left home and started to search for repair estimates, certainly a lot of work but might do a lot ourselves trying to keep the price down. (my wife really loved the layout of the boat and that counts)

We then got a message from the owner to look at the ad, he dropped the asking price by 20.000 so was now asking 25.000 for the boat.

We thought this was a reasonable price and replied asking him if he would reserve the boat while we arranged for a survey, we stated we would pay the asking price if the structure was sound (no delamination or osmosis)...
We kept on exchanging some messages and he finally even proposed himself to phone the yard to provide me a quote for the required hauling.

I sincerely hope that whoever is buying Atreyu, a 1980 Ocean Winds 33 will read this post so they know the boat they bought is NOT seaworthy and is a lot of time and money away from being so... Whoever this is, feel free to contact me !
The owner has proven he can not be trusted so there might even be a lot more issues than what I already found, after all, I'm not a surveyor...



For those interested in more information I found, I have uploaded a partial copy of the website of the previous owner : "Atreyu" and a series of pictures we obtained as well as a selection of the pictures we took while inspecting the boat, a lot of detailed pics there of shortcomings : "Atreyu images"

End of Story ... (I guess)

 

[haydude]

End of Story ... (I guess)

I think that you can consider yourself lucky. I would not have paid even the reduced asking price. Sounds like a salvaged wreck.

However I would consider it an exception, because I go back to my previous post.
Next time before booking for a trip, that I think was not a total waste because the area around Cagliari is of outstanding natural beauty, I would ask some questions about the seller's background, what does it do, etc. Also I would stick to vessels not older than 6-10 years. Be wary of small vessels owned by individuals resident there and flying a foreign flag. Dodgy. Only the wealthy can get away with it, by registering the vessel abroad, owned by a foreign company, and worth doing only if millions are involved.

Sardegna residents have an average income that might not allow to purchase and maintain a good value vessel, but there is an extremely rich minority, mostly established in the north east, which is the best place to look for good vessels.

Another type of good owner is the one who lives and work in the main land (Rome or Milano) and keeps the yacht in Sardegna, in which case the outside may be left untidy.

I hope this helps.

 

[djeeke]

Thanks Haydude,

No, not a salvaged wreck, a boat which was in excellent condition 4 years ago (I have several independent people confirming this) but neglected over that same period...

I had been in contact with the previous owner who has lived on the boat for 14 years and kept her up-to-date, he delivered it himself in Cagliari. He even had just had the complete running and standing rigging replaced as well as equipped it with brand new sails... On the pictures you can see what 4 years of neglect can do, those sails should never have staid on the boat but should have been stored inside....

The current owner is a surgeon and has only moved recently to Sardegna, he has been able to afford 20.000 to replace his engines two years ago just because he did not trust the old ones (they were still operational)... He should have spent 10.000 on the rest of the boat and she still would have been a great boat...

Stick to 6/10 years old, nice but we can not afford this neither do we want to wait 10 to 15 or even 20 years to double our budget, by then we will be too old to be able to enjoy cruising or maybe not even on this planet anymore...

We have a dream and a very limited budget but it can be done...