Survey for recreational sailors

[Vicki_1]

Hi All,

This is my second reply to this thread today, but unfortunately it seems to take a while for my posts to get through the moderating process. I just want to say thank you again to everyone that has taken the survey, and everyone that has given me 'constructive criticism', especially sarabande !

I am afraid I am definitely not an expert on this subject, I previously worked on algae culture in a land-locked lab! But I am trying to get to grips with the terminology and alike. In terms of my tutor, Camelia I'm afraid my supervisor (who knows a thing or two about this subject) did not give me any suggestions for altering the survey.

However, from all the helpful suggestions put forward by you and on other forums, I have now altered the survey. Hopefully it will be less offensive (although that was never my intention, and I do apologise to those who found it so) and more useful for my thesis. If anyone would like to retake the survey feel free, but if you could state in the comment box at the end that you have retaken it that would be useful. Again, feedback is always appreciated

Many thanks again
Vicki

 

[white74]

Vicki, you seem to have approached this in a very negative way, though this may just be my perception. If you presented the risk of importing invasive species on the hull and gave the areas this was applicable to you could receive a very different response. At the moment you are asking would I be willing to be inconvienced at great expense to my personal pocket on the basis of no data whatsover. I'm not aware of any invasive marine species that is is believed to have introduced to the UK by the hull of a recreational boat - are there any? If not why do you believe this is a risk that needs mitigating?

Sailors are especially sensitive about this as the have been at the wrong end of (I hope) well-meaning but mis-guided "conservationists" before. Have a search through the forums about Studland Bay and BORG as an example. A lot of conservationists seem to assume that they are they only people interested in the environment - which is about as far from the truth as you can get.

I appreciate you may not want to do it just yet but it would be great if you could let us know exactly what you think the risk of introducing a non-invasive species on a recreational yacht is - perhaps examples of the species and the waters they could be brought in from. Ironically one the constant moans you'll hear on these forums is how few long passages or cruises are done these days, partly because of the weather and partly the economic situation.

I think for most recreational sailors haul out and hull cleaning would make this a cost prohibitive option if perhaps there was a subsidized cleaning service that might encourage a more positive response

 

[Richard10002]

I think for most recreational sailors haul out and hull cleaning would make this a cost prohibitive option if perhaps there was a subsidized cleaning service that might encourage a more positive response

It always strikes me that haul out and cleaning is an overly complicated process, which could be made much easier with an investment in technology and equipment.

We drive our cars into a car wash, and they get washed, then we drive out. No reason why the same principle couldn't apply to boats. Drive in, lift, jet wash all round, lower, drive out - job done. With enough demand, it might be possible to provide a "competitive" facility.

 

[Lakesailor]

I very much doubt the powers-that-be will be using it to create legislation!

Someone probably thought that when theorising on the possibility that CO2 may be having an effect on the climate.........

 

[prv]

It always strikes me that haul out and cleaning is an overly complicated process, which could be made much easier with an investment in technology and equipment.

We drive our cars into a car wash, and they get washed, then we drive out. No reason why the same principle couldn't apply to boats. Drive in, lift, jet wash all round, lower, drive out - job done. With enough demand, it might be possible to provide a "competitive" facility.

Come to Cowes some time. There we have both the boat-wash (revolving underwater brushes exactly like a car wash, which you drive your boat through) and the sea-lift, one-hour lift-outs on a floating dry-dock with jet-wash facilities exactly as you describe. There is enough demand here, so the facilities exist.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

It always strikes me that haul out and cleaning is an overly complicated process, which could be made much easier with an investment in technology and equipment.

We drive our cars into a car wash, and they get washed, then we drive out. No reason why the same principle couldn't apply to boats. Drive in, lift, jet wash all round, lower, drive out - job done. With enough demand, it might be possible to provide a "competitive" facility.

Already exists - there is Sea Lift in the Solent. However hugely capital intensive - the latest version is getting on for £1m. Would be a brave person who made that kind of investment.

Lift and wash in our club is only around £70 for my 37' using a Wise travel hoist.

 

[Twister_Ken]

From the p-o-v of Vikki's topic, the Sea Lift type of facility is not effective. What's washed off the hull goes straight back into the water. The waste and the water would need to go through some sort of sterilisation process before being returned to the 'oggin.

 

[Seajet]

If one watches the stream of boats leaving say Chichester on a Friday evening / Saturday then returning on a Sunday afternoon, any steriliasastion process would have to be very quick and either government funded ( another Big Brother keeping tabs on movements ? ) or very cheap.

I understand modern ships already subject outgoing waste to U/V treatment ?

Maybe UK marinas could do that to help them go bankrupt a bit earlier unless Quango's like Natural England would like to fund them, while the rest of the EC laugh at us for taking anything they say seriously ?!

How about a thesis on big ship movements, they are by far the ones to study as already pointed out; though I hope this is just an academic exercise.

 

[bikedaft]

I've never been that convinced by the whole non native species argument - they are here now, and if they are successful then its because natural (de)selection is working in their favour. why should we think we know better/well enough, to interfere in this area?

also do some species hitch a ride on other sealife etc? i'm just guessing they do eg barnacles on whales etc, and plenty other parasitism in the natural world.

have done the survey.

 

[st599]

My Masters was an undergraduate degree. Just means you have 1 year more debt accumulated.

Bigger, quote didn't work.

 

[st599]

To stop the invasive species entering the water, it would need to be a separate tank with lock gates, drained between uses. I can't see how the quick scrubs you see in the Medina and Solent would work.

 

[l'escargot]

Come to Cowes some time. There we have both the boat-wash (revolving underwater brushes exactly like a car wash, which you drive your boat through) and the sea-lift, one-hour lift-outs on a floating dry-dock with jet-wash facilities exactly as you describe. There is enough demand here, so the facilities exist.

Pete

I know Sealift in Cowes but where's the one with the revolving brushes? There was one at Haslar but it folded years ago.

Sealift is still over a hundred quid a pop just for a wash off.

 

[pmagowan]

I did survey. I can't really see that this is either feasible or significant. Fair enough for an isolated country like Australia for new boats entering but in the UK I don't think recreational craft are a significant factor or that the proposed solutions would be proportionate. Getting the bottom scrubbed once a year is already too much of a chore and there are literally no facilities to do it in my area. I dry out against a harbour and get the power hose out. But really, most recreational craft are used within a few miles of their home port with a once a year trip further afield (in my experience). I am not sure that any invasive species are going to get a free ride on my hull. Anything from my home port is likely to get bashed off in the first mile or so and I have no holding tanks. To clean every recreational boat entering a harbour in a significant way would be a massive, expensive and, IMO, pointless activity.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

For an undergraduate thesis, I suspect that Vicki has no agenda and hasn't appreciated the sensitivities (or potential costs) involved or implied by her chosen area for her thesis. I also strongly suspect that the actual outcome of the work is almost irrelevant as the university will be more interested in her following a process showing some academic rigour. The conclusion she comes to might be that there is no risk and the costs would be prohibitive? She might not have considered that there's a major risk at all from this source, but she will be marked on how she approaches finding that out for real. Its an undergraduate thesis, not a Phd thesis which has weight behind its outcomes and conclusions.

I only know anything about this because our daughter has just done a thesis as part of her finals. (She researched the neurological processes of Paracetamol which she tells me is an interesting area as until very recentlys me the processes by which Paracetamol works were not completely understood. She had to research all the various research done so far and write it up showing subject knowledge understanding in her research of the academic work done to date. No extraordinary conclusion from her, but she was showing that she could produce a credible piece of research using all the processes required.)

Fair comment and I will apologise to Vicki for my own negativity though I was trying to be constructive. It was the Masters that made me slightly more critical - I've just lived through my lad's graduate dissertation so I know what it's like.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

My thesis is actually on designing and building marinas in a way that can prevent the spread of marine invasive species, instead of trying to force more legislation on recreational boaters. I only asked the question to gauge reactions, but I was fairly sure it would gain a negative reaction!

In response to grumpy_o_g, I am still in the research stage of my work, but it would appear that although recreational boats are not the main source of introduction of non-native species (commercial shipping is the main cause, followed by aquaculture) they can give invasive species a ‘free ride’ around the UK coast. I’ll do a trawl of my literature and post up here when I find something relevant. I understand that you all have a vested interest in the marine environment, which is why I have made the survey. It’s hard to judge how to pitch these things when you start (I usually deal with dead fish and green slime, not surveying people!) so perhaps I’ve taken the wrong stance. I have been modifying the survey as I go along (not great science, but the only way to get it right) and may now go back and change how I phrased the last few questions, so thanks for your response.
Many thanks
Vicki

Vicki, my apologies for the way that came across. It wasn't meant to be negative as such - more a bit of feedback on the sensitive nerves you could touch. The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone who actually has a genuine scientific approach. I think that, amongst those who like marinas, no one would have any problem with a marina that prevented the introduction of non-native species as long as it was transparent to them. It's when you start introducing costs and delays, etc. that people will ask exactly what problem you're solving. The other thing is a marina is a pretty loose definition and goes from the £7K+ pa fully serviced marinas on the South Coast to the collections of ramshackle pilings and jetties beloved of people like Dylan - http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/.

Anyway I've completed the survey in a suitably grumpy fashion

 

[Vicki_1]

Hi All!

I've had an amazing response to my survey - over 100 people took the first draft, and 80 the second. I really do appreciate all the comments, I think my survey is getting better responses now thanks to your suggested changes and I've learnt lots about the issues surrounding hull cleaning (although I knew it was expensive I had no idea the price could vary so much, one respondent said it could be £50-500!).

I hope you all realise that this isn't the main angle on my thesis; I'm looking at designing harbours, as there is speculation that some materials, the layouts of marinas and locations in which they're sited will decrease the settlement of INNS. This is just a (very) interesting aside!

There has been lots of research into pleasure craft in freshwater environments spreading INNS, but not much work done on marine craft. However, there is an informative paper by Mineur and Johnson (2008) called Macroalgal Introductions by Hull Fouling on Recreational Vessels: Seaweeds and Sailors (if you google scholar it you will find the abstract, if not the whole article). The research was done with a combination of surveys and visual inspections of boat hulls. It's interesting reading, but comes to the conclusion that normal behaviours (such as cleaning the hull of your boat to improve performance) is sufficient to control the spread of INNS, with neglected recreational boats being a bigger problem than those used frequently.

Again, thanks for the responses, both here and to the survey
Vicki

 

[laika]

normal behaviours (such as cleaning the hull of your boat to improve performance) is sufficient to control the spread of INNS, with neglected recreational boats being a bigger problem than those used frequently.

Do investigate the price of a "racing scrub" at local harbours / marinas. People who are passionate about their racing and have the funds will do this regularly but when you discover the price you'll realise why the rest of us only resort to it when we're getting overtaken by pedalos. Packages are often available for smaller boats (Plymouth yacht haven seems to charge £75 for up to 9m) but for larger (11-12m) cruising boats you're looking at well over £200. There's also the time to consider. Others can comment on the throughput rate of lift and scrub operations but I'd doubt it's better than one an hour. Lifting and cleaning the hulls of all boats leaving a "high risk" marina (as I think was implied as a possibility in your survey) would simply not be practical. Even if less than 10 boats were leaving on a given day, as we're often all wanting to catch the same tide, we'll all be wanting to leave at the same (usually ungodly) hour.

 

[prv]

I know Sealift in Cowes but where's the one with the revolving brushes? There was one at Haslar but it folded years ago.

There used to be one at Cowes I think, on the west side of the river but not sure exactly where. This was years ago so I'm not surprised if it's no longer there. Not room for both them and Sealift.

Pete

 

[[70521]]

In terms of my tutor, Camelia I'm afraid my supervisor (who knows a thing or two about this subject) did not give me any suggestions for altering the survey.

Thanks for clarifying that Vicki; an interesting approach from your supervisor!

 

[Vicki_1]

Even if less than 10 boats were leaving on a given day, as we're often all wanting to catch the same tide, we'll all be wanting to leave at the same (usually ungodly) hour.

Thanks for the reply. I can see that the idea of cleaning every boat that leaves a marina is impractical, both in terms of expense, time and facility constraints. I think what I'm learning from this is that it's the 'neglected boats' which are the biggest issues. Frequent boat users like yourselves are likely to have clean hulls, and will often have them cleaned at the start of the season before hopping around the coast, and this is definitely the best approach to minimising the risk of spreading INNS.