Survey advice

[[2068]]

Actually that's a good point as it comes with a "full 3 month UK engine warranty" which is why, as discussed earlier, keeping her in the UK for 3 months is a consideration. However in some discussions with the dealer they say "its U.K. Only" and yet in another there is talk of the lack of desire to put an engineer on a plane to rectify a fault. So you have raised a good point, to which I don't know the answer. One of the dealers solution - a one year engine warranty costing GBP1,900 .

If you are buying the boat I think you are buying, say hi to Jonathan

In my case, I pitched in with an offer that took into consideration most of the minor issues I had spotted already, and the survey in some ways was not particularly helpful, as it failed to pick up some items that cropped up later.

The engine/drive survey by VolvoPaul was much more helpful, and I used it as a shopping list of items to fix later.

In the end, I didn't drop the offer price: Too much hassle, and it was the boat that I wanted. Although in hindsight, I probably should have pushed for a new bank of batteries, as they were knackd, and didn't last the season. Mine was a brokerage boat, not a stock boat, so somewhat different situation anyway.

 

[Resolution]

Interesting that many dealers appear to offer a 3 month warranty when, as I understand it, consumer law makes them liable for six months. Often wondered if by offering a 3 month warranty they are trying to appear to be doing a good deal whilst ducking their actual responsibilities. Just a thought

Guys, you really need to take a quick look at the Which? website for the Consumer Rights Act, which replaced the Sale of Goods Act.
The CRA applies to purchases by a consumer from a "business" vendor or retailer or dealer. The OP says his vendor is a dealer, so assuming the OP is NOT also in the business of dealing in boats then the CRA should apply to this transaction.
The CRA has a 30 day returns period for most products. If a serious defect* is found then the purchaser can return the goods and obtain a full refund. *Unfit for purpose, not as described, unsatisfactory quality.

The six month period is particularly misunderstood. It is the period during which, if a fault is discovered it is assumed that it existed at the time of sale UNLESS the vendor can prove otherwise. After six months the onus of proof switches and the purchaser would have to prove that the fault existed at the time of sale. Given the nature of faults likely in a working product like a boat, this is a really key provision. It makes the pre-sale survey and engine inspection even more important as evidence of the state of the boat at time of sale.

 

[Resolution]

The risk they are taking on yours is just the same as buying a car from auction , there buying it from you at auction price which means they have a massive margin when they come to resale plus the margin they have in the V42, it's a no brainier for them otherwise they wouldn't be dealing with you.

volvopaul
That's mostly tosh.
Comparison with auction pricing is irrelevant because we don't have boat auctions in the same way that car dealers have a well-established system of regular large scale car auctions.
In pricing a PX offer the dealer would have to take into account a) the cost of utilising working capital until the resale, b) costs required to put the boat into proper saleable condition, c) warranty risks under the CRA, d) all the usual overheads in handling any boat brokerage. And it may be a different make of boat from those in which the dealer specialises. Few things worse for a dealer in a top quality brand than having poor quality trash from other brands lurking around on the sales site.
Amazing how often the "massive margin" ends up as a loss when reviewed by a clear-sighted accountant!

 

[volvopaul]

volvopaul
That's mostly tosh.
Comparison with auction pricing is irrelevant because we don't have boat auctions in the same way that car dealers have a well-established system of regular large scale car auctions.
In pricing a PX offer the dealer would have to take into account a) the cost of utilising working capital until the resale, b) costs required to put the boat into proper saleable condition, c) warranty risks under the CRA, d) all the usual overheads in handling any boat brokerage. And it may be a different make of boat from those in which the dealer specialises. Few things worse for a dealer in a top quality brand than having poor quality trash from other brands lurking around on the sales site.
Amazing how often the "massive margin" ends up as a loss when reviewed by a clear-sighted accountant!

You obviously don't know the marine industry as to what dealers offer in PX and buy in at, I won't bother arguing any further , I've been in the industry 30 years . The discussed boat was bought in as a trade deal like many other from the company offering it for sale. We will see how good it is on a Friday

 

[volvopaul]

Guys, you really need to take a quick look at the Which? website for the Consumer Rights Act, which replaced the Sale of Goods Act.
The CRA applies to purchases by a consumer from a "business" vendor or retailer or dealer. The OP says his vendor is a dealer, so assuming the OP is NOT also in the business of dealing in boats then the CRA should apply to this transaction.
The CRA has a 30 day returns period for most products. If a serious defect* is found then the purchaser can return the goods and obtain a full refund. *Unfit for purpose, not as described, unsatisfactory quality.

The six month period is particularly misunderstood. It is the period during which, if a fault is discovered it is assumed that it existed at the time of sale UNLESS the vendor can prove otherwise. After six months the onus of proof switches and the purchaser would have to prove that the fault existed at the time of sale. Given the nature of faults likely in a working product like a boat, this is a really key provision. It makes the pre-sale survey and engine inspection even more important as evidence of the state of the boat at time of sale.

Many boat owners over the years have Cried the sale of goods act and latest CRA and got nowhere with builders and dealers , it's hopeless when you buy a brokerage boat because it's down to the surveyor to give his opinion on condition not the broker or dealer.
You will also find that stock boats owned by dealers don't transfer title to there name but simply hide the boats paperwork in the previous owners name which as a buyer is a difficult task to obtain names and contact details , I've come across this many times. Dealers doing this avoid any further claims after sail, I've yet to find anyone that fell foul over a bad boat get anything back from a dealer, came across this a few months back when a dealer bought a boat in for stock from an owner who wanted out quick fir the buyer to have engine problems, he sought advise from me of which I put him right as to who held title , after that the faults were rectified.

 

[[2068]]

It's sometimes the case that the actual owner of a stock boat is the bank!
You only get the title and docs a few days after the sale, so having a quiet chat with the previous owner prior to sale isn't always straightforward.

 

[Resolution]

Many boat owners over the years have Cried the sale of goods act and latest CRA and got nowhere with builders and dealers , it's hopeless when you buy a brokerage boat because it's down to the surveyor to give his opinion on condition not the broker or dealer.
You will also find that stock boats owned by dealers don't transfer title to there name but simply hide the boats paperwork in the previous owners name which as a buyer is a difficult task to obtain names and contact details , I've come across this many times. Dealers doing this avoid any further claims after sail, I've yet to find anyone that fell foul over a bad boat get anything back from a dealer, came across this a few months back when a dealer bought a boat in for stock from an owner who wanted out quick fir the buyer to have engine problems, he sought advise from me of which I put him right as to who held title , after that the faults were rectified.

Yes I am aware of some of the shady practices by shonky dealers like the one you mention. As ever, the rule is buyer beware, know your law in detail, try to do your business with reputable people.

 

[Andy Bav]

Thanks for all your responses. From my perspective the best I can do is employ the best people I can find and take heed of their advice. Volvopaul is widely recognised as the best man for the engines, and the surveyor is very high up in the world of marine surveyors. Nothing is guaranteed and I appreciate that boating isn't cheap, but as long as I go into the deal with my eyes as wide open as possible, I can hopefully look forward to a trouble free 2017 season. Keep you posted.

FlowerPower - Jonathan's boss actually. But think you have it :encouragement:

 

[jon and michie]

Any updates Andy Bav ???

 

[Andy Bav]

Any updates Andy Bav ???

I am waiting to get the written reports from Volvopaul and the Surveyor - who said that he thought she was a good boat and in good order (in a very brief phone call today).

I can't thank Volvopaul enough for his knowledge and guidance and was at the "sea" trial with us on Friday and present at today's lift out. Early engine prognosis is that items identified were in line with expectations so no gremlins outside of those expected, and it seems as though the dealer has replaced quite a few items, but a few more need attention which I would expect the dealer to rectify.

There is one relatively significant issue I should really discuss more with Paul before putting on open forum, and I would be interested to hear the Surveyors comments as well, but simply put there are 4 "items" which to my mind the dealer should replace, and if he doesn't it could be a deal breaker for us. Items cost c£900 each.

interesting that the surveyor said that "as a stock boat I wouldn't worry as it will have a warranty" which as alluded to above, may be a bit tenuous as regards the engines and legs, but in his mind certainly covers issues such as shower sump pumps and all habitation equipment etc "irrespective of where you keep her". So a prompt truck to SCM is not out of the question.

Subject to seeing reports and considering what I can disclose, I'll provide a further update, but based on what I have heard so far, it's more positive than negative. The question is what can I reasonably expect the dealer to replace...

Thanks for all the PMs from current and previous owners

More shortly...

 

[jfm]

Guys, you really need to take a quick look at the Which? website for the Consumer Rights Act, which replaced the Sale of Goods Act.
The CRA applies to purchases by a consumer from a "business" vendor or retailer or dealer. The OP says his vendor is a dealer, so assuming the OP is NOT also in the business of dealing in boats then the CRA should apply to this transaction.
The CRA has a 30 day returns period for most products. If a serious defect* is found then the purchaser can return the goods and obtain a full refund. *Unfit for purpose, not as described, unsatisfactory quality.

The six month period is particularly misunderstood. It is the period during which, if a fault is discovered it is assumed that it existed at the time of sale UNLESS the vendor can prove otherwise. After six months the onus of proof switches and the purchaser would have to prove that the fault existed at the time of sale. Given the nature of faults likely in a working product like a boat, this is a really key provision. It makes the pre-sale survey and engine inspection even more important as evidence of the state of the boat at time of sale.

I agree your general analysis but as regards the surveyor's report being evidence, it can only serve as evidence AGAINST the buyer, surely.

 

[jfm]

...in his mind certainly covers issues such as shower sump pumps and all habitation equipment etc "irrespective of where you keep her". So a prompt truck to SCM is not out of the question...

Maybe, in his mind, but alas not in the law. CRA2015 does not require the dealer to fly from UK to SCM with a new shower sump if the one you have breaks.

 

[Andy Bav]

Just to complete this thread and before starting another on pre delivery advice, we have finalised the deal and paid our 10% deposit aiming to complete in late Jan early Feb.

Volvopauls advice has been superb and as Flowerpower said, he has given us a combination of items that will be rectified by the dealer and potential issues to watch out for in the future, but the boat ticks many many boxes for us.

I'll start another thread shortly and may have to consider a change of forum name, but somehow "Princess Andy" doesn't seem right.!

Thanks again to all forumites for their private and public advice...

 

[rbcoomer]

Haha - you've 'come out' then? Andy-V42 or similar might be better?

More seriously, congratulations - she looks great and I'm sure you're not going to regret buying! :encouragement:

 

[Gentlemanracer]

Yes, hearty congratulations indeed! Looking foresrd to your Coronation ceremony!

 

[[2068]]

Congrats!

"Andy D6" or "Andy V42" seem a bit more masculine than the Princess version...

 

[volvopaul]

Just to complete this thread and before starting another on pre delivery advice, we have finalised the deal and paid our 10% deposit aiming to complete in late Jan early Feb.

Volvopauls advice has been superb and as Flowerpower said, he has given us a combination of items that will be rectified by the dealer and potential issues to watch out for in the future, but the boat ticks many many boxes for us.

I'll start another thread shortly and may have to consider a change of forum name, but somehow "Princess Andy" doesn't seem right.!

Thanks again to all forumites for their private and public advice...

Great to hear you finally bashed out a deal with BW, what aftercare warranty did you finally agree on?

 

[benjenbav]

Congratulations. Should be a great boat in the med.