Super bargain on a 1995 70ft Canados, what is the catch ?

Thank you for a warm welcome. It is really an interested audience on this forum, with lots of knowledge about boating, and even pictures and video to explain concepts. Thanks for all input so fare. Especially nice to meet a real Norwegian here, sounds promising...(Har lest tråden din tidligere i fjord sommer:) And six pages of posts already, makes me feel comfortable using this forum to exchange experiences and ideas. Very nice!

Well, unfortunately, not all has gone according to my plan, and I'm still waiting for confirmation and clarification from the owner/brooker. I was invited down to a view and test drive, while the paperwork (contracts) should be prepared so no one intervened before I had made my decision. (This was to avoid wasting time and money once more, I had ordered a flight before Christmas that I had to cancel, as there was another buyer in desember who would come the same day I was leaving)

Seems to me that the owner / broker wants to haul out the time, and I have been told there is another buyer that are comming next week to see the boat. I understand of course that the owner wants to get as much as possible for the boat, but this looks more like a game that I do not think I will be playing much longer. Yes, I know .. recommendations about patience ... and I usually trust people until the opposite is proven ....

It also includes a history that the shipyard in Lavangnes has made an offer on the lift for survey of around 4000 Euros? ... Can that be correct?

Well, I'll wait to see what happens in the morning...if it is possible to go on with this, I am sure there will be a lot of subject to discuss...:)
 
Hmm, difficult process. Good luck anyway, and there are plenty of other boats.

4000 euros for a lift of a 80 foot boat is crazy. In (normally more expensive) French Riviera I pay about 1000-1200 for a lift, hold for 3 hours on blocks, and relaunch, for the same size/weight boat. And that is using a proper "travelhoist" crane
 
jfm said:
Hmm, difficult process. Good luck anyway, and there are plenty of other boats.

4000 euros for a lift of a 80 foot boat is crazy. In (normally more expensive) French Riviera I pay about 1000-1200 for a lift, hold for 3 hours on blocks, and relaunch, for the same size/weight boat. And that is using a proper "travelhoist" crane
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Yes jfm, that was what I was thinking too, around 1-1200E for a lift for survay. Lots of other boats, but it take time to get in position...
 
IIRC, there's a travelhoist also in Rapallo, which is much nearer than Genoa.
I wouldn't hold my breath re. prices, though. Rapallo has a reputation for being expensive.
 
OddvarH said:
..looked at Chiavari but it seems to me they dont have the capacity to lift this boat...
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The picture on their website is quite old. This is the current lift. Might be worth dropping them an e-mail?


The other thing that cost me more than I wanted was the 'Sea Agency' that did the paperwork. Maybe get a quote for this in advance?
 
BartW said:
In Italy I've payed 2000K for lift out, pressure wash, and lift in (in 3 occasions)
so I assume thats the average price.
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..but that is still haft the price of Lavangna:) ..

adey said:
The picture on their website is quite old. This is the current lift. Might be worth dropping them an e-mail?


The other thing that cost me more than I wanted was the 'Sea Agency' that did the paperwork. Maybe get a quote for this in advance?
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...I'll send them a mail...but what is a "Sea Agency"? For what purpose do I need them??
 
OddvarH said:
..what is a "Sea Agency"? For what purpose do I need them??
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this is a agency that does all the paperwork for the owners, registering - unregistering,
the "wealthy" owners don't want to be bothered with this,
this is all very official and professional, but takes a couple of months.

but when buying, you must insist that the paperwork, and unregistering is included in the deal,
and that you get the "unregistering papers" before you do the final payment

I had the money on a "Italian notary" account in that period. (there might be other methods)
 
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BartW said:
... "wealthy" owners don't want to be bothered with this,
this is all very official, but takes a couple of months.
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...well, I'm not "that welthy" Bart, so I assume I will have to deal with it myself:) But has gone trough this earlier, and has already pointed out for the brooker that all documents needed for transfere of the boat and have a new registration, must be provided before the boat is paid. It means, Contract, Bill of sale, de-registration, history of ownership, Vat status, and so on...and that must be verified by an Public Notarius and added apostill. How payment is done I am not sure of, but as you suggested, a "Italian notary" account could be possible.

Last time I did this took 3 months, but that was with the Norwegian Ship register. (They also demanded a "User manual in Norwegian".....)
 
Divemaster1 said:
The Norwegian International Ships Register should not carry that requirement ... (...as far as I recall when I looked into this stuff for a 21M Cantieri di Pisa)...
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...you might be right Alf, it was the NOR part of the register, not the International (NIS)..will assume they do not requier a "Norwegian manual" for NIS ...however, my experience was five years ago, when the Norwegian Maritime Directorate and NIS / NOR were two separate entities...have heared things has been easier now, as they work together...

...this leads me to another question, where to register a yacht...(Maybe a new tread) ...I was discussing this with BartW..and our conclution was that the easiest was to pay EU tax, and register it in NIS/NOR, then my pleasure craft sertificat would be valid as well...

...but have looked at other options, as England, Gibraltar, BVI, and so on...and also MCA coding in case of commersial use...then I could keep it "VAT-free"....but then I probably will need to upgrade my skipper sertificate....so, is there anybody that is expert on these things that have some suggestions? :)
 
OddvarH said:
...MCA coding in case of commersial use...then I could keep it "VAT-free"....but then I probably will need to upgrade my skipper sertificate....so, is there anybody that is expert on these things that have some suggestions? :)
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Big topic so I wont cover it all here. As this boat is just about to come out of an IT lease, it is VAT paid automatically, and there is no VAT saving on the hull if you put it in a "VAT structure".

If you code it and get a YM commercial licence, you can charter it to get some revenue. Charter fees are now VATable in all EU countries - the French exemption ended last season. Registering for VAT is a lot of hassle, so think carefully...

Coding and chartering (sometimes to yourself) could save you tax on fuel bought in France and IT, but you will have to run the boat as chartered when buying the fuel, and you will have to register for VAT and pay over VAT on the charter fee. You will get VAT exemption on shipyard work and parts for the boat, but only in France (possibly IT as well, but it might be more difficult there). All this is now much hassle, but if you are ok with the hassle then you can do it.

But this is a biiiiig topic and I only just scratched the surface...
 
jfm said:
As this boat is just about to come out of an IT lease, it is VAT paid automatically, and there is no VAT saving on the hull if you put it in a "VAT structure".
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exactly,
that's why I advised Oddvar, in case he goes ahead with the purchase, to pay the small amount of VAT on the remaining value of the lease.
He's in the rare position that he can get this big Mobo, easy VAT payed, and for silly money.

jfm said:
You will get VAT exemption on shipyard work and parts for the boat, but only in France (possibly IT as well, but it might be more difficult there). All this is now much hassle, but if you are ok with the hassle then you can do it.
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I'm wondering how all these commercial yacht owners are going to handle these administrative duties...?
many opportunist organisations show up offering that kind of service,
I've heard from a owner who charged for VAT second half last season, and kept the money on his own account, not knowing what to do with it :D
Therefor I move BA to Montenegro / Croatia for at least one season, my family wanted to go there anyway, and we might come back to the western Med, when all this VAT charging is well established and clear.
 
...yes, I'll agree about the commercialization thing, it will take to much time to deal with, and time is money:)

But how can the rest VAT be 20.000 E, if there is just a short remaining lease...that I quit dont understand. (The last info form the brooker, at first it was 15.000E)

Well, the thing is that there has been no further progress the last week, so I think something is going on "backstage" here...
 
€20k feel high, but the answer will be in the lease, which you need to read. If there is a big balloon payment at the end of the lease then there could be VAT €20k. But that would involve a very big balloon payment. That feels strange, because normally the end-of-lease balloon payment is tiny, like a few €k

Anyway, if there is a big balloon owed to the bank, you need to know about that regardless of the VAT!

The broker should be able to give you a term sheet describing the lease, and then the lease document (in Italian...)
 
OddvarH said:
But how can the rest VAT be 20.000 E, if there is just a short remaining lease...that I quit dont understand. (The last info form the brooker, at first it was 15.000E)
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Are you sure that is not the total remaining to settle the lease including VAT rather than just the VAT? I looked at an Italian boat recently which had a number of lease payments outstanding and there were lots of different figures flying around until the bank produced the actual schedule of outstanding payments left. I was given 2 options, either continue paying the lease to the end or pay a settlement figure to close the lease. In both cases, the boat would have been VAT paid. In the end I didn't buy the boat but I certainly wouldn't have continued paying the lease because the interest rate was very high at about 8%
 
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