Super bargain on a 1995 70ft Canados, what is the catch ?

[PowerYachtBlog]

I am not 100% sure, between 1995 and 2005 Canados used to mix up a bit its models.

In Genoa 1995 they launched a Canados 24 with the same shape, and the 23 they had in design was more an updated 70S with a stern looking like that of the 24. I never saw any of the 23 in this design.
Canados closed down in 1998 and then the 24 became the 25.

There is also a bit of confusion with the later 80 - 82S and 86 models. This was first build as an 82S with hull one owner being F1 driver Fissichela, a couple more of 82 models where launched, then they made an 80 and 86 (this one still in production).
We had a 25 here in Malta a 2000 year build and it had those same humidity problems, owner then part exchanged for a 110 hull 1, sold last year and yacht still residing in Malta.

In Google there seems to be some more 23 with the same super structure, I am sure if I find the old mags I can find the 23 design.

Nineties Canados are hard to find, the more later you go in the decade the more harder they get since the company closed for a couple years in 1997-98.
In this segment type of yachts in that decade the market was much more controlled by Falcon 80 and 82S, and the still awesome looking and produced Sanlorenzo 82 from 1996 (now as SL82 with very little changes).

 

[jfm]

My thought exactly.
Actually, looking at how darkened some panels are, I'd guess that freshwater had plenty of time to work inside, which lead me to wonder if also some structural parts could be involved.
I mean, assuming that the cross beams of the main deck and f/b are built in wood, IF some of them are rotten (which btw might be hard to find), the carpenter bill could easily skyrocket.
Nonetheless, a helluva lot of boat for the money. And a very good seaboat too, as you well know!

All agreed. Helluva boat for the price, but anyone buying this needs to reserve €125k for a refit. When that is done you have a great boat with near-new machinery for under €400k. And you probably have €300k of residual value flat lined.

As well as the €125k, the buyer needs to be able to manage the project because there is no way the shipyard will do it - so the buyer needs to be someone like you BartW! The buyer also needs to be patient and tolerant about things like the deck sealing which is clearly going to be an Achilles heel always on this type of boat. There is risk that the shipyard will not get it right 1st time, or even that the shipyard will do a great job but the joints will still flex/crack again, when those nice big MANs are working hard over waves. I think I'd want to get lots of flexible sealer in there

and +vat.

No: when the IT leasing finishes it will be VAT paid

 

[adey]

Yes, but at the moment the VAT's not paid (if I understand the Italian leasing scheme correctly) so I imagine it'll take even longer for the Italian deregistration.
They do like their paperwork in Italy.

 

[BartW]

Yes, but at the moment the VAT's not paid (if I understand the Italian leasing scheme correctly) so I imagine it'll take even longer for the Italian deregistration.
They do like their paperwork in Italy.

The new owner can choose to buy with or without VAT from the leasing co,

the previous beneficial owner (the user) was private and payed the leasing invoices "with" VAT !
so if the new owner wants, now with a extra of approx 15Keuro VAT, (VAT on the remaining purchase price from the leasing) the boat is fully VAT payed.


nevertheless you're right about the paperwork in Italy, can take months,
but there is a simple work around that, at least in Belgium, been there, done that

 

[BartW]

Lovely boat. One day I'd like to buy something like that.
Lavagna is a great place to get work done as there are lots of skilled tradesman there and the Italian economy is still bad and getting worse by the day. The paperwork from Italian lease to Belgium flag won't be that quick or easy and +vat.

Is this it?... http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1995/Canados-Canados-23-M-2661053/Italy

yes thats her,
Lavagna is indeed a region with many old craftsmen from two famous and well respected yards, Admiral and Alalunga,
but unfortunately both are closed.
The village Lavagna on the other hand as such is not a nice place.

just out curiosity, where is your boat ?

 

[adey]

We were in Lavagna over the summer and now we're next door in Chiavari.
Lavagna is deceptive. The area behind the marina is a bit industrial (that's where the boat fixers are) but the town's not bad and did grow on us. Chiavari is a bit nicer though.
Bart, thanks. I assumed the lease scheme was always -VAT.
We're the only foreigners in the marina. There's a direct train from Milan so 99% of owners are from there.

 

[jfm]

The new owner can choose to buy with or without VAT from the leasing co,

the previous beneficial owner (the user) was private and payed the leasing invoices "with" VAT !
so if the new owner wants, now with a extra of approx 15Keuro VAT, (VAT on the remaining purchase price from the leasing) the boat is fully VAT payed.


nevertheless you're right about the paperwork in Italy, can take months,
but there is a simple work around that, at least in Belgium, been there, done that

Exactly. There is therefore only a few pennies more of VAT to pay, and the boat will then be 100% vat paid. So it is correct to describe it as VAT paid and for a buyer not to worry about having to pay any more VAT (other than those few pennies)

 

[OddvarH]

Hello everybody, first a great thanks to Bart for all the assistanse in this process, your help has been of significant value and not to forget...a great source of inspiration. So even if I do not get the boat, I have learned a lot

The boat looks great by first impression, but are aware of hidden costs along the road. My consern is as mentioned in the tread, if there is other structual damages as rotten beams in the roof/deck, and also how the underwater hull looks like.

I think, as discussed with Bart, that sealing the deck before new teak should be possible, as it will be compared with painting anything else of wood in the superstructure. The paint will seal the wood, as will also epoxy??

A survey might give some answares to this, but nice to hear other opinion here also?

However, thing takes time, and have not been able to go on yet, as I am waiting for a reply from the brooker. We are still in Rome, and not so easy to organize things at the moment, but will l update the tread as soon as I know more.

Best regards Oddvar

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Hey Oddvar

Welcome to the forum. Looks like a really interesting project - good luck with the purchase.

 

[Firefly625]

Hey Oddvar

Welcome to the forum. Looks like a really interesting project - good luck with the purchase.

+1, hope it all comes together

 

[jfm]

I think, as discussed with Bart, that sealing the deck before new teak should be possible, as it will be compared with painting anything else of wood in the superstructure. The paint will seal the wood, as will also epoxy??

Hi Oddvar, and welcome

This is an interesting story and I wish you best of luck with it

Sealing in a case like this is not easy. Sure you can seal it, and it will be perfectly ok in the shipyard. But when you go to sea and hit waves the whole boat flexes, and the seal can fail. The issue actually is not flexing - it is differential flexing. On this boat, because of the way it is constructed, you have vertical superstructure sides that are very stiff as the boat rises and falls on waves, but the flat deck is not stiff at all, and that is a challenge for the joint between the two. That would be true of any boat constructed this way, but as evidenced by Bart's acrow-prop mods there might be a few aspects where Canados didn't really get their sums right on all this. So, you will need a lot of thought on sealing this, maybe using flexible polyurethane sealing or something. It would be a big disappointment if you fitted a new teak deck then had to remove it because the seal failed. I guess there will be good surveyors out there who have experience on this and can advise you

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Whoo hoo another boat refit story! I'm guessing the original MAN engines were the V10s which I've been advised by more than one person to steer clear of. Also I'm guessing in this size of boat that they would be really working hard to push the boat at any decent speed so no surprise they were shagged. The new engines I'm guessing must be the D2842 V12 engines which I understand are good engines in which case, this boat is very attractive at the price even considering some serious refit work. Btw with regard to the pocket anchor, I had one on a previous Azimut and I hated it because it was very difficult to see which way round the anchor was when it came up into the pocket. On many occasions it did come up the wrong way and got stuck in the pocket leading to the inevitable marital argument. I used to keep a special piece of wood on board which I banged into the pocket with a big hammer to free the anchor. IMHO, much better with the anchor on a bow roller where you can see it

 

[rafiki_]

Another warm welcome from me too Oddvar. Looks a fantastic proposition. However, with respect to sealing, if as JFM suggests, it is not possible to get a durable seal, is there another route? Assume water will enter, but provide a means of water exit, so the wood will always dry?

 

[Divemaster1]

Velkommen Oddvar !!

En fin gjeng med båtentusiaster her inne ... råd vil flyte... noen kjempe.... andre sarkastiske og morsomme ... utfordringen er å finne ut hvilke som er hva... En ting som er sikkert er at når noen alvorlig vurderer en investering slik som denne, så vil du få objektiv og ærlig informasjon fra erfarne båteiere i alle kategorier !!

@ all others ... just a welcome to Oddvar, saying what great bunch of guys you all are ..... and a small health warning about possible (all be it very rare... )... sarcasm and occasional humour which by a non-native English speaker could be interpreted as negative.

Only fundamental flaw I see with this boat, is the lack of DD's on-board .. ... oh and some water ingress....but others more knowledgeable than me have already responded to that issue...

... water outside boat = good ... water inside boat = bad

 

[jfm]

@Deleted User. One word: Ancam

 

[vas]

@Deleted User. One word: Ancam

yes, but since you've not finalized and patented it mr J., there's no proper solution with the appropriate image processing s/w that would do pattern recognition and once the anchor comes up with:

A. a lot of weed
B. wrong way up

the system:

1. drops down 1m
2. activates massive seawater wash to clean chain/anchor (if A. showed on the pattern recognition s/w)
3. brings it up again

So mike rightly opts for a conventional system

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

@Deleted User. One word: Ancam

Yeah, yeah but then I would have nothing to argue with the missus about

 

[rbcoomer]

Hello everybody, first a great thanks to Bart for all the assistanse in this process, your help has been of significant value and not to forget...a great source of inspiration. So even if I do not get the boat, I have learned a lot

The boat looks great by first impression, but are aware of hidden costs along the road. My consern is as mentioned in the tread, if there is other structual damages as rotten beams in the roof/deck, and also how the underwater hull looks like.

I think, as discussed with Bart, that sealing the deck before new teak should be possible, as it will be compared with painting anything else of wood in the superstructure. The paint will seal the wood, as will also epoxy??

A survey might give some answares to this, but nice to hear other opinion here also?

However, thing takes time, and have not been able to go on yet, as I am waiting for a reply from the brooker. We are still in Rome, and not so easy to organize things at the moment, but will l update the tread as soon as I know more.

Best regards Oddvar

Welcome Oddvar! Looking forward to another interesting rebuild thread if you go ahead with this :encouragement: Certainly looks a lot of boat for the money, but the unknowns would scare me stiff I have to confess! I guess there comes a point once you've researched and costed as much as you can when you have to take a bit of a risk and go with instinct... Good luck anyway.

I think that the humidity that MapisM is referring at, is the same as what could happen in a wrong isolated house,
but back to our wooden deck floor:
If the outside temperature is cold, you can get condensation on the inside, on the bottom of the Polyester, which is actually inside the ply bottom plates ?

Hi Bart,

Maybe thinking at cross-purposes here, but condensation can only form from cooling (dew-point) of moisture in the air and thus if the polyester/resin is bonded to the ply then surely air is excluded and thus moisture too? In Vas' instance, he cannot be sure to fully encapsulate the hull and thus is leaving the inside to 'breathe'. Is not the same applicable to ply deck? i.e. Polyester/resin over the ply and then apply teak etc - the ply can still 'breathe' on the underside and the topside is sealed with the resin so no air to condensate. Or am I misunderstanding?

Regards,

Robin

 

[vas]

Maybe thinking at cross-purposes here, but condensation can only form from cooling (dew-point) of moisture in the air and thus if the polyester/resin is bonded to the ply then surely air is excluded and thus moisture too? In Vas' instance, he cannot be sure to fully encapsulate the hull and thus is leaving the inside to 'breathe'. Is not the same applicable to ply deck? i.e. Polyester/resin over the ply and then apply teak etc - the ply can still 'breathe' on the underside and the topside is sealed with the resin so no air to condensate. Or am I misunderstanding?

Regards,

Robin

Robin that's exactly how I understand the physics of this process. Leave one side unsealed, all should be fine
Actually on the ply+epoxy+mat+epoxy+caulking+teak sandwitch you have BOTH sides of the full assembly unsealed, teak breathes up and ply down. Should keep them both happy.

V.

 

[jfm]

you've not finalized and patented it
V.

Haha! It is installed and working; how more finalised can it be?

There will be no patent. It is freeware, for the good of the forum and society at large

(Oddvar, so you know what we are talking about, and it would be a nice toy on your Canados, this is the Ancam

)