Sunsail life jackets

[doris]

This week we saw 2 Sunsail boats with the crews fully life jacketed up. Spot on one might say. However there was not a crutch strap to be seen. Chatting amongst ourselves we were all of the view that those jackets would merely accelerate the drowning process. We were surprised that coded boats were allowed to be thus! Accident looking for somewhere to happen and all that!

Maybe a Sunsail rep looks at the forum and might like to comment.

 

[lw395]

I have been over the side in my auto inflate lifejacket, and it works perfectly without a crutch strap. This was unplanned, so I hadn't done the straps up extra tight or anything, just normal. Most of the add on crutch straps reduce your mobility to the point where I could not do my job on the keelboat I race on. They would simply make me much less likely to wear an LJ.
It's a shame that it generally costs £25 or so to find out how well your LJ will work, how many people wear them without knowing what its like in the water? I'm not proud of going in, I felt silly and it spoiled an afternoon's racing for two other people. But the knowledge that my lifejacket worked well is a small consolation.
I also sail dinghies and have extensive experience of capsizing with a couple of different BA's, with and without trapeze harnesses, and again I am confident that the BA's work absolutely fine with no crutch strap.
You may need a crutch strap if you are obese. Also for small kids because the fit of a BA/LJ is totally different.

 

[cawarra]

?

Am am very confused as to how you came to the conclusion what without a crotch strap would "accelerate" the drowning process...

Whilst I agree these straps prevent the jacket riding up, a properly fittted jacket (which any skipper should ensure his/ her crew have before leaving) will do the job its designed to do.....

 

[cawarra]

And I totally agree with LW395. I too have been in very similar situations with yacht racing and dinghy racing. I wouldt let me daughter (2yrs old) have a jacket without a crotch strap, as like LW395 says, the fit is totally different and are usually bouyancy aids at that age and not life jackets.

I think that the skipper of the Sunsail boat was being very conscientious and professional.

 

[doris]

Am am very confused as to how you came to the conclusion what without a crotch strap would "accelerate" the drowning process...

Last time I jumped into a pool with a life jacket on without a crutch strap the jacket rose up with the 'waist' strap under my arm pits and me trying to pull my face into the gap above. In a stress situation this would almost certainly bring on a degree of panic, even with an experienced user. Use of a life jacket is not a pre-planned thing and the element of surprise is huge.

The review in the comic last month made much of the straps. I am delighted that some users find they work without, I didn't. To say that the straps impede your movement is. IMHO, complete tosh. Fit them properly.

 

[bbg]

Having done the ISAF sea survival course, I have also jumped into the water with a life jacket on. It was a borrowed LJ, and very comfortable and comforting it was, too - even without crotch strap. For about 5 or 10 minutes, until my legs and boots became fully waterlogged, at which time I had to hold my arms around the LJ to prevent it from riding up too high. I wasn't panicking, but it was extremely uncomfortable. Having to spend another 20 minutes in the pool doing drills was more than enough.

That course convinced me that I will not skimp on getting a cheap LJ, and when I put it on I will always use the straps - preferably thigh straps. A Spinlock Deckvest is the next thing I will purchase for the boat.

 

[lw395]

Last time I jumped into a pool with a life jacket on without a crutch strap the jacket rose up with the 'waist' strap under my arm pits and me trying to pull my face into the gap above. In a stress situation this would almost certainly bring on a degree of panic, even with an experienced user. Use of a life jacket is not a pre-planned thing and the element of surprise is huge.

The review in the comic last month made much of the straps. I am delighted that some users find they work without, I didn't. To say that the straps impede your movement is. IMHO, complete tosh. Fit them properly.

You possibly either had a poorly designed LJ or didn't adjust it properly. If an LJ is designed so that it does not work without crutch/thigh straps, then surely they should be integral?

I stand by the comment that crutch and thigh straps can impede your movement, this may be that I sail in different boats to your Dehler, including small keelboats where I'm the bloke who has to occassionally step up 3 feet from the cockpit to foredeck with the boat rolling etc and regularly have to jump onto the coamings. We also spend a lot of time crouched/sat/kneeling on the floor, or doubled up under the boom. I've also been someway up the mast during a race a couple of times..
I have tried both crutch and thigh straps because at one time I fitted all my LJ's with them due to involvement in 'proper' offshore sailing. I pretty soon took them off for keelboat work, after a couple of instances where the straps got slighly out of place and I couldn't move my leg as far as expected. Any unexpected impediment like this can have you over the side, or not out of the way of the boom....
I haven't seen the review in the comic referred to. I see a lot of people wearing poorly adjusted LJ's. A lot of LJ's are ridiculously awkward to adjust while they're on. In bigger boats there is a tendency for the lifejackets to be provided by the yacht, so they become bulk purchases, tending to increase price pressure.
As a final point, my Baltic LJ was not the cheapest, but I would recommend it, provided of course it fits well. I also like the dinghy BA, because in the limit it has no moving parts to fail.

 

[DownWest]

I had to swim quite a long way (on my back) with an old mouth inflate LJ ( it was incredibly difficult to puff up in choppy water) I was wearing all sorts of clobber that was impossible to shed. I have since bought XM non-auto LJs and am now considering crotch straps, but, for the reasons given, I will make them so they can be winched up when needed so as not to be a hindrance in normal use.
The original LJ did what was expected and did not ride up over the swim. (but the bl++dy valve did pop out and I had to do most of the way with a thumb in the inflate tube)
A

 

[st599]

You possibly either had a poorly designed LJ or didn't adjust it properly. If an LJ is designed so that it does not work without crutch/thigh straps, then surely they should be integral?

[\QUOTE]

The Chief Instructor of the Royal Navy Sea Survival School told me life jackets didn't work without crutch straps and visor. I believe him.

 

[DownWest]

st599,
Given some of the recent examples in the news, almost any Lj would have worked. A Royal Navy instructor would be inclined to stick to the script.
A

 

[lw395]

You possibly either had a poorly designed LJ or didn't adjust it properly. If an LJ is designed so that it does not work without crutch/thigh straps, then surely they should be integral?

[\QUOTE]

The Chief Instructor of the Royal Navy Sea Survival School told me life jackets didn't work without crutch straps and visor. I believe him.

I think perhaps it pays to distinguish between deep-ocean sea survival and a day sail in the Solent. If you fall off a Sunsail yacht, the biggest threat to your survival is being run over by the other 30-something Sunsail yachts.

When the navy go out to play, I don't see them wearing LJ's at all except in their smallest craft. I've seen plenty of RN personnel using LJ's without extra straps, which is entirely fine inshore IMHO.

For serious sea survival you want North Sea rig gear, not consumer stuff, it's a different league, but a tad disproportionate for popping over to Bembridge on a good forecast.

 

[HoratioHB]

Funny, I have crutch straps and use them for the reasons given here. However one of the best allround lifejackets in use today is that worn by military aircrew - the good old 'Mae West'. If you take the goodies away, ie the flares, breathing bottle etc, what you actually have is a waistcoat with a bladder similar to sailing life jackets. It is fastened with three buttons at the front and tensioned around the waist with a built in strap. It is very easy to put on, can be worn over a multitude of stuff - immersion suits, flying overalls etc. Its quite heavy but thats mainly because of all the extra goodies that are packed into it. However - it does not have a crutch strap. I used them regularly during routine drills - 6 monthly for 12 years and one two occasions for real. They do not ride up and give excellent buoyancy. Why on earth hasn't a manufacturer copied the idea for us yachties?

 

[NorthRising]

See page 39/40 of the Ouzo report - Section 2.9.7

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm

"The report further concludes that simply fitting crotch straps to the lifejackets, which are normally sold as a cheap optional extra, would have enabled them to have stayed in the correct donning position, irrespective of how tight they had been fitted. Had crotch straps been fitted to their lifejackets, it is possible that all three crew would have survived for longer than 12 hours."

That will be the MCA's view.

 

[MissFitz]

Just a thought on what a 'well-fitted' lifejacket should be capable of - how exactly is a standardised lifejacket supposed to be a good fit on everyone from a 5'2" female to a hulking fella?

When I did the sea survival course, we had six men & two women - the larger chaps were fine in their jackets (for a bit, anyway), while I & the other female (both of us on the smaller side) had ours up round our ears in seconds. I found that an excellent reason to get a crutch strap.

 

[Firefly625]

having grown up on boats in the 70's & 80's when the going got rough we used safety lines. When the going got really bad my old Mum would reach for the Life Jackets... obviously back then they were bulky and restricted movement hence why they weren't used much... in fact it would have to be a F8+ and we would have to be far out the Solent before my old Mum would insist, but that was in 33ft to 48ft boats so not day racers.... I vividly remember on one occasion with the wind gusting circa 50knots her coming up with our lifejackets with a worried look on her face, we were exactly mid way across the channel when having gone for our Life Jackets she was the one that discovered we were sinking... and that was a brand new boat. In the 90's I owned and raced a J24 and never worn a life jacket...although did have v expensive oilys with built in buoyancy...

but today Life Jackets are far more comfortable, far smaller and in many ways I cannot believe I wear one every time I go out...I don't wear mine with a crouch strap but it fits very well, but I do insist my 6 year old daughter has a crotch strap ..... but Life Jackets were the one thing when I was grown up I hated and I always swore they made me feel sick! (sounds a bit like a annoying brat kicking off!)