Sump oil contaminated with diesel.

[grahama]

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Check the pump timing...

these engines have a hole through which a pin can be inserted which engages with a lug on the flywheel (whether that is still there in its marinised state i could not say) putting the engine at TDC. With the crank in that position both the camshaft pulley and injection pump pulley have locking pin holes (about 8 o'clock and 11 o'clock respectively) which allow locking pins to be inserted through and into the block behind. Correctly timed both those pulleys will be able to be locked in the correct position with the crankshaft in the #1 TDC position.

Thanks. Sounds like I should be able to do these checks quite easily, presumably if the pegs don't align then I'll have to remove the timing cover etc to access the belt so it can be replaced and set up correctly.

 

[Heckler]

I’m hoping someone here can help with my engine problem, diesel is getting into the sump oil at quite a rate, dip stick goes up by about 1ltr in about 1.5 hours of running at 2000ish rpm.

I’ve had the oil lab analysed and it’s definitely diesel, over 10% in new oil after 1 and a half hours of running. (Water levels fine and correct colour etc.)

Exhaust smoke:- thick grey from first start, although when the boat was re-launched 8 weeks ago the thick grey smoke only appeared when the engine was hot – now, a few hours running time later it makes no difference – it’s not black but heavy grey that lingers and stinks. No obvious blue smoke.

History:- Engine, new Ford FSD (4 cyclinder direct injection 2.5 ltrs, read transit pre 2000) marinized by Lancing with PRM box, engine hours 150 total over about 6 years. Last 2 years on the hard, engine cranked over every month to get oil around to prevent corrosion and ran once every 6 weeks for a few minutes until the water cooled exhaust got too hot. Engine was fine prior to re-launch.

The most obvious cause I would have thought was the crank driven diaphragm pump, have now changed this twice with new ones, one from ebay which I didn’t know the history of so last week I bought another new one from the main Ford dealer – no improvement.

I’ve just returned from having the injectors tested, apparently they’ve never seen such a good spray pattern from a Stanadyne injector! – I was hoping one or all would be been dribbling fuel and it finding it’s way past the rings into the sump.

Engine fires first turn of the key, absolutely no cranking needed whether hot or cold.

Injector pump is belt driven, so no route from the pump into the engine as some installations.

Injectors are mounted ontop of the engine, not under a rocker cover .

The only other change I’ve made is the engine was previously run using Shell semi-synthetic oil and now I have changed to Gulf Multi G – a ‘CD’ only rated oil due to all the advice on this forum regarding bore glazing etc – I can’t believe that the type of oil has anything to do with this problem though.

Any idea’s chaps?. I’m at a total loss,

Never ceases to amaze me how many peeps dont read the post before answering! You have checked the obvious which would have been the lift pump, the next obvious is the injectors BUT you have checked those, no dribblers. So the clue is in the grey exhaust, one or two cylinders not firing? Injectors injecting BUT the fuel isnt being burned, goes past the rings in to the sump? If it is doing that though you should have a lumpy tickover. Put the injectors back in, start it up then crack each injector nut one by one, it should go lumpy if the injector/cyl is good (because it is missing on that cylinder) If it doesnt miss a beat on a particular injector/cyl then that is the kiddy. Compression test next and if bad it is engine out and piston time! The semi synth oil could have something to do with this! It wont be the pump timing 180 deg out!
Stu

 

[grahama]

Never ceases to amaze me how many peeps dont read the post before answering! You have checked the obvious which would have been the lift pump, the next obvious is the injectors BUT you have checked those, no dribblers. So the clue is in the grey exhaust, one or two cylinders not firing? Injectors injecting BUT the fuel isnt being burned, goes past the rings in to the sump? If it is doing that though you should have a lumpy tickover. Put the injectors back in, start it up then crack each injector nut one by one, it should go lumpy if the injector/cyl is good (because it is missing on that cylinder) If it doesnt miss a beat on a particular injector/cyl then that is the kiddy. Compression test next and if bad it is engine out and piston time! The semi synth oil could have something to do with this! It wont be the pump timing 180 deg out!
Stu

I agree and thanks. The engine has a smooth(ish - never been a Rolls Royce) tickover, not really any appreciable lumpyness but when i put the injectors back in i'll do the checks you mention for peace of mind. I think the point raised regarding the timing jumping a tooth or two sound good advice and I'll read the manual to see how to check this.

 

[Mudplugger]

Currently up to 700 hrs on my FSD and 1950hrs on my oppo,s, both start on first turn of key and only smoke if left idling for a couple of hours ( easiest way to bang some amps in) would suggest a phone call to either Mike or Mark @ Lancing...have alway,s found them to be exceeding helpful.

 

[grahama]

.

Currently up to 700 hrs on my FSD and 1950hrs on my oppo,s, both start on first turn of key and only smoke if left idling for a couple of hours ( easiest way to bang some amps in) would suggest a phone call to either Mike or Mark @ Lancing...have alway,s found them to be exceeding helpful.

Hi, that's encouraging - out of interest what oil do you use? Is it on a sailing yacht with similar duties to mine?

Have spoken to Mike but drew a blank.

 

[grahama]

timing spot on! any more ideas?

Well I checked the pump / crank timing yesterday and, am almost sad to say, that's it's spot on so that doesn't appear to be the problem.
Can't find a compression tester yet but there is very little pressure coming from the rocket cover.
Could the bosch fuel injector pump be overpressuring the system and causing far too much fuel to find it's way into the cylinders?

 

[Marsupial]

we appear to have an engine in perfect condition that is not working, a visual inspection by a person who knows about engines is required.

Out of interest how did you check for No 1 piston at TDC on the firing stroke?

 

[vyv_cox]

1. Try Stu's tip of slackening each injector pipe to see if all cylinders are firing. A lot cheaper than a compression test.
2. But also try the barring over that I suggested earlier, will also reveal one cylinder not compressing.

Could the bosch fuel injector pump be overpressuring the system and causing far too much fuel to find it's way into the cylinders?

Not by any means that I know. I agree that unless the two points above produce results it's time to call in a good professional.

Not sure if you are aware that running the engine with diesel in the oil runs the risk of engine runaway, when the fuel below the piston gets burnt above it. This is uncontrollable and can cause the engine to be destroyed unless you gag the air intake. Have a piece of timber handy just in case.

 

[grahama]

TCD

we appear to have an engine in perfect condition that is not working, a visual inspection by a person who knows about engines is required.

Out of interest how did you check for No 1 piston at TDC on the firing stroke?

Rotated the crank manually, socket on crank nut, until the hole in the flywheel, inspection hole just above starter motor was visible and locked it in this position using a 12mmo/d socket. Then removed the inspection grommit in the front engine cover and the 'u' shaped slot and hole behind in the injector body aligned - follow the manual i have basically.

 

[grahama]

1. Try Stu's tip of slackening each injector pipe to see if all cylinders are firing. A lot cheaper than a compression test.
2. But also try the barring over that I suggested earlier, will also reveal one cylinder not compressing.

Not by any means that I know. I agree that unless the two points above produce results it's time to call in a good professional.

Not sure if you are aware that running the engine with diesel in the oil runs the risk of engine runaway, when the fuel below the piston gets burnt above it. This is uncontrollable and can cause the engine to be destroyed unless you gag the air intake. Have a piece of timber handy just in case.

Thanks.
1. Didn't try this yesterday as I ran out of time, will give it a go next time I'm there.
2. Did do this results......after injectors were re-fitted, torqued down, i rotated the crank manually using the socket on a 9 inch (ish) handle all the stiffness felt much the same, not sure though how much resistance I should feel at compression position on each cylinder?

Thanks for the runaway reminder, was aware but had forgotten.........clean oil in again yesterday.....don't want to damage the bottom end of the engine. My friend who runs a garage repair business, has done for 25years or also is equally puzzled.

 

[Marsupial]

Rotated the crank manually, socket on crank nut, until the hole in the flywheel, inspection hole just above starter motor was visible and locked it in this position using a 12mmo/d socket. Then removed the inspection grommit in the front engine cover and the 'u' shaped slot and hole behind in the injector body aligned - follow the manual i have basically.

So it could be 180 deg out, that position occurs twice in every 4 stroke cycle. You need to ensure that the rockers on No 1 cylinder BOTH rock when the flywheel indicates TDC.

 

[grahama]

I'll take the rocker cover off next time to check although it doesn't mention in the ford factory manual that this is necessary.

 

[VicS]

So it could be 180 deg out,

Would it run at all if the timing was that far out?

Obvious things eliminated.

Clue surely is the smoke. Not firing on one cylinder . Some unburned fuel coming out as smoke, the rest going into the sump.

Compression test required. Although it may not tell you what's wrong it'll tell you which cylinder ( or two?) to look at once you start tearing it down.

Got a mate in the motor trade who could lend you a compression tester?

 

[grahama]

.

Would it run at all if the timing was that far out?

Obvious things eliminated.

Clue surely is the smoke. Not firing on one cylinder . Some unburned fuel coming out as smoke, the rest going into the sump.

Compression test required. Although it may not tell you what's wrong it'll tell you which cylinder ( or two?) to look at once you start tearing it down.

Got a mate in the motor trade who could lend you a compression tester?

Thanks Vic,
I agree, if it was 180 deg out it would be, at the least very lumpy and rough.
I have a few friends in the motor trade but neither has an adapter for the stanadyne injectors fitted to this engine............I'll keep looking and asking.

 

[higler]

Was thinking about your problem and just a thought but if the injector pump seal between pump and drive was leaking maybe the diesel is getting through down through your crank case. maybe if you can get the case away you could see if that could possibly be the cause. it appears youve done all else, cant think it would be compression as you are making too much deisel in the sump. Good luck

 

[Marsupial]

I'll take the rocker cover off next time to check although it doesn't mention in the ford factory manual that this is necessary.

The manual wont explain this it assumes a level of competence and knowledge of the otto cycle.

Vic, yes the engine could run 180 deg out, the fuel would be introduced at the top of the induction stroke, both valves would be open (not fully) the engine would "fire" as soon as the temp from compression allowed, it would knock and smoke but it would run,; in the same way as it would run if "fuel" was introduced into the inlet tract or cylinder and cause the engine to "run away", this engine wont run away because a correct amount of fuel is delivered, albeit at the wrong time in the cycle.

Until we are sure the engine has been timed with No 1 cylinder at TDC and not No 4 we cannot eliminate injection pump timing as a cause for the smoke. If the OP takes the rocker cover off to ensure the engine is in the correct position he could check all the tappet clearances and eliminate another cause of low compression i.e tight tappets.

Total cost ZERO.

As others have said barring the engine over could reveal low compression, but with the rocker cover off you would know which cylinder is on the compression stroke, all low cost and normal maintenance type tests, therefore low cost.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
If the OP takes the rocker cover off to ensure the engine is in the correct position he could check all the tappet clearances and eliminate another cause of low compression i.e tight tappets.
>>>
I ought to do this myself but I'm too scared to go solo on this one and too broke to pay a pro:-(

 

[VicS]

I ought to do this myself but I'm too scared to go solo on this one and too broke to pay a pro

Not a job to be sacred by ... least ways not with a pushrod engine with adjusters on the rockers. There is some knack or technique to be acquired but that's all. When you've done it servicing the car every 6 months for 25 years it holds no fears!

Overhead camshaft engines can be a different kettle of fish, esp when the camshaft has the be removed to make the adjustments by changing shims!

 

[VicS]

The manual wont explain this it assumes a level of competence and knowledge of the otto cycle.

Vic, yes the engine could run 180 deg out, the fuel would be introduced at the top of the induction stroke, both valves would be open (not fully) the engine would "fire" as soon as the temp from compression allowed, it would knock and smoke but it would run,; in the same way as it would run if "fuel" was introduced into the inlet tract or cylinder and cause the engine to "run away", this engine wont run away because a correct amount of fuel is delivered, albeit at the wrong time in the cycle.

Until we are sure the engine has been timed with No 1 cylinder at TDC and not No 4 we cannot eliminate injection pump timing as a cause for the smoke. If the OP takes the rocker cover off to ensure the engine is in the correct position he could check all the tappet clearances and eliminate another cause of low compression i.e tight tappets.

Total cost ZERO.

As others have said barring the engine over could reveal low compression, but with the rocker cover off you would know which cylinder is on the compression stroke, all low cost and normal maintenance type tests, therefore low cost.

Hang about. We are not talking about an engine that has been worked on and timed incorrectly. We are talking about an engine that was running OK aren't we.
The 180 degrees mis-timing you are talking about is 180° measured at the injection pump thats 360° at the crankshaft!.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that the engine could have jumped by exactly 1 complete crankshft revolution/½ pump revolution and landed with the timing marks back exactly in line.
Different I admit if the belt has been off and the OP was foolish enough to spin the engine while it was off but so far I dont think he has admitted to that. In fact a belt change, he says, is a job scheduled for NEXT winter!

 

[VicS]

I'll take the rocker cover off next time to check although it doesn't mention in the ford factory manual that this is necessary.

I'm thinking while you have the cover off to do that check that all the valves are operating properly and closing fully.

Possible i wonder for some rust to have formed on a valve stem while it has been idle and for the valve ( possibly even more than one ... but then it would not start easily) not to be closing fully.

Exhaust valve the most likely to be affected I'd think. Possible also if that is the case that valve piston contact has been made, the piston pushing the valve nearly shut. Piston and valve damage then possible.

Just a thought !