suitcase generator vs running the (main) engine?

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

The new generation solar panels provide charge even when is cloudy, and it is great solution for what the OP is looking for. A few years ago I bought a 1200 watt generator to provide me with additional power so that I would not have to run the boat engine to charge the batteries, however, I have never used it because the solar panels keep the domestic batteries (3 x 110 amp) topped up and able to run the fridge 24/7 as well as all other needs. Solar power is the way forward by far. Add solar panels wherever you can and make sure they are the rigid type and good quality. Also, if need, increase your domestic battery bank.

 

[Mistroma]

It would be ideal for me if running in neutral wasn't as damaging as we have been so frequently told. My problem is not power but hot water for the crew's morning shower. I had been thinking of getting a suitcase generator just for the immersion in the calorifier.

Is it damaging or not? Or just a bit?

You will be running a small generator at near max. if you have a 900-1200W element. Water takes a lot to heat up and you will be running the generator for quite a long time. It's quite easy to work out the time if you have the H/W tank capacity, element wattage, starting temperature and required end temperature. I wouldn't be surprised to find that you'd run a small Honda generator at high revs. for 40-60 mins.

The engine may well be better in that case as you get waste heat whilst charging the battery. A small generator might not be able to heat water and charge batteries at the same time (I appreciate that you might not do both).

The new generation solar panels provide charge even when is cloudy, and it is great solution for what the OP is looking for. A few years ago I bought a 1200 watt generator to provide me with additional power so that I would not have to run the boat engine to charge the batteries, however, I have never used it because the solar panels keep the domestic batteries (3 x 110 amp) topped up and able to run the fridge 24/7 as well as all other needs. Solar power is the way forward by far. Add solar panels wherever you can and make sure they are the rigid type and good quality. Also, if need, increase your domestic battery bank.

I hope I'm not being too picky but it is probably the MPPT regulators rather than the panels. Panel efficiency has gone up but MPPT bumps the voltage up to allow charging when it is cloudy. I'm only mentioning it in case someone decides that new panels will solve all their problems but keep an old PWM regulator.

I think MPPT makes a big difference in Scotland but not very much gain in Greece for much of the season. Panels tend to be putting out a high enough voltage to charge batteries for much of the day in Greece (May-August).

 

[Iliade]

What the Cap'n just said ^

I just lugged my EU1.0 about for three weeks without needing it. It is however a great thing for peace of mind w.r.t. emergency engine restarting, as it can be hand started, unlike the main donk.

Running 150w solar in the summer, it just about copes with the fridge-freezer, instruments, lights and autopilot set on high sensitivity.

Don't underestimate the power consumption of four adults' phones and related gizmos.

Calorifier definitely increases water consumption as everyone lets the tap run until it is hot, and then probably runs it for longer than they would were the shower cold...

 

[PaulRainbow]

What the Cap'n just said ^

I just lugged my EU1.0 about for three weeks without needing it. It is however a great thing for peace of mind w.r.t. emergency engine restarting, as it can be hand started, unlike the main donk.

Running 150w solar in the summer, it just about copes with the fridge-freezer, instruments, lights and autopilot set on high sensitivity.

Don't underestimate the power consumption of four adults' phones and related gizmos.

Calorifier definitely increases water consumption as everyone lets the tap run until it is hot, and then probably runs it for longer than they would were the shower cold...

I know i do this. Before i replaced the hot water system i just boiled a kettle of water, now i waste cold water by running the tap until it's hot. Might be helpful to fill the kettle with that cold water, ready for the next round of drinks, but i never seem to remember.

 

[jwfrary]

It would be ideal for me if running in neutral wasn't as damaging as we have been so frequently told. My problem is not power but hot water for the crew's morning shower. I had been thinking of getting a suitcase generator just for the immersion in the calorifier.

Is it damaging or not? Or just a bit?

On a run in engine no. Assuming you have adequate rpm About 1800 rpm or so and a sufficiently big enough alternator to be excerting some load.

The issues come with running very slowly for long periods of time. In my opinion.

If it's done intermittently between periods of proper work, no harm will come to it.

 

[dgadee]

I can't help thinking that the need for a morning shower at anchor is a modern sailing myth.

I'm reminded of a story told here many years ago of someone who invited a friend and his family - wife and 2 daughters IIRC, thinking it would be nice to go off for a week visiting delightful anchorages. The actual history of the trip was a trudge from marina to marina to fill up the empty water tank every day.

OK the weekly bath whether I needed it or not when I was a child is maybe a step too far in the direction of water conservation but, degadee, you aren't encouraging me to fix the water heater on Jazzcat!

You don't have the crew I have. Showers are an essential part of the sailing regime. And yes, it does take a load of water, but the whingeing would be awful if not provided for. I am just about to put a 2nd water tank in. Inverter for the hairdryer went in yesterday. This is all on the smaller boat, of course. The other one has all female facilities. If you don't you'll wonder why the partner/wife doesn't like sailing.

 

[dgadee]

On a run in engine no. Assuming you have adequate rpm About 1800 rpm or so and a sufficiently big enough alternator to be excerting some load.

The issues come with running very slowly for long periods of time. In my opinion.

If it's done intermittently between periods of proper work, no harm will come to it.

Hopefully you are correct. Have just emailed Beta to get their view. Will get back with their response.

 

[cherod]

This is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The OP has a 33ft boat, which can accomodate more than enough solar for his modest needs. My Westerly Discus is a similar size to the OPs Storm and is fitted with a pair of 100W panels, connected via a Victron MPPT controller. During a UK Summer i can stay aboard for weeks/months on end, powering my fridge, TV, sound system, water pumps, lights, laptop/phone chargers etc without the need for shore power. There are odd times, when we get a few cloudy days in a row, when i have to turn the mains charger on, but not many.

To the OP: i'd forget the noisy generator and fit as much solar as you have room for. Some panels on the guard wires work OK, or you could splash out on a gantry (which is what i have). On the odd occasion in the Summer when the Sun doesn't shine enough you might need to run the main engine for a while, but it will be quieter than the generator, something less to buy and lug around, less petrol to buy and lug around and you'll get a free tank of hot water (assuming you have a calorifier).

fine Paul , but what about if you want to run a grinder , drill , hoover / aquavac , shower sometimes .

 

[geem]

I am afraid it is you that is digging a hole for yourself.

This thread (and the OPs original question is nothing directly to do with solar - in fact until you waded in they were only mentioned in passing by others - some correctly pointing out that they were not necessarily appropriate to the OP's situation. Then you come in (post#20) effectively saying they are essential. Why because you can to quote "stay on board for weeks/months on end, powering my fridge, TV, sound system, water pumps, lights, lap top/phone chargers..." (see what I did there - we DO know how you use your boat and you have equipped it to enable you to do this).

NONE of this, however, is in the least bit relevant to the OP's situation - currently does not even have a fridge. He has a 1980s boat with very basic electrics and wants to upgrade for cruising - or in his words "going a bit further afield" and installing heating, autohelm, instruments and phone charging. Not even mention of a fridge or pressurised water.

No different from the vast majority of coastal cruisers around the UK who get on just fine without resorting to festooning the boat with solar panels. Our club marina has over 400 cruising boats - I can count on my fingers the number who have significant amounts of solar permanently or semi permanently mounted. Quite a few have small panels for topping up, but even then most stopped doing that when we installed shorepower for every berth.

I know what you can do with solar - as you say not rocket science, and if the OP has said he was off to warm climes to liveaboard then solar would be right up there to meet power requirements - but he is not. He actually asked originally whether using a suitcase generator rather than running the engine to charge batteries before further explaining what he was trying to achieve.

I know from the way you have answered other questions of a similar nature that you can come up with sensible suggestions - just not this time, preferring to start by misunderstanding something I wrote and then going off onto a crusade for something that does not fit the OPs needs.

Even when I pointed this out to you and directed you back to the Ops posts you still keep digging a hole for yourself without offering anything useful for the OP.

The point is those that successfully use solar for all their charging requirements ( or nearly all) are pointing out that solar is a great solution to his problem. A suitcase generator is not necessary.
Only you are suggesting that solar is not the answer.
We have a high electrical demand with two fridges and freezer and we meet all our electrical demands without resorting to engine or generator for charging batteries. We haven't been in a marina for two months and we are unlikely to be in one until November. Solar works

 

[Tranona]

The point is those that successfully use solar for all their charging requirements ( or nearly all) are pointing out that solar is a great solution to his problem. A suitcase generator is not necessary.
Only you are suggesting that solar is not the answer.
We have a high electrical demand with two fridges and freezer and we meet all our electrical demands without resorting to engine or generator for charging batteries. We haven't been in a marina for two months and we are unlikely to be in one until November. Solar works

Nowhere did I say that solar was not the "answer". What I said was that it it is not that important in meeting the Op's requirements. Once again. like so may people here you go off onto what you use to meet your requirements rather than understanding what the OP needs. He does not even have a fridge - let alone 2 big ones like you do.

Tens of thousands of cruisers with modest boats like the OP has cruise very happily around the UK without solar. The combination of power saving (LEDs, good insulation etc, a decent size house bank, split charging system with a good alternator) is more than adequate. Most UK cruising has a reasonable amount of motoring, spending nights in a marina with shorepower to put back enough to balance out usage over a typical weekend or 2 week holiday cruise such as the OP envisages.

Of course, as I have said over and over again (if you bother to read) if you deviate from this pattern of usage you may well need to review your system and at some point solar becomes not just desirable but necessary to maintain the sort of lifestyle you choose. However, the OP is at a point where he basically has a 1980s system of two batteries, probably with 1,2 both switching which was fine then with no fridge, basic instruments, no autopilot, no pressure water. Now he wants to add modern gear and a new engine and update his electrics to suit. That is the brief I worked to - and is a long way away from your, Laminar Flow and Paul's requirements. To suggest as Paul did that he needs to hang as much solar on as he can fit is just nonsense and only shows that he probably was more interested in having a go at me than understanding the OPs question.

 

[geem]

Nowhere did I say that solar was not the "answer". What I said was that it it is not that important in meeting the Op's requirements. Once again. like so may people here you go off onto what you use to meet your requirements rather than understanding what the OP needs. He does not even have a fridge - let alone 2 big ones like you do.

Tens of thousands of cruisers with modest boats like the OP has cruise very happily around the UK without solar. The combination of power saving (LEDs, good insulation etc, a decent size house bank, split charging system with a good alternator) is more than adequate. Most UK cruising has a reasonable amount of motoring, spending nights in a marina with shorepower to put back enough to balance out usage over a typical weekend or 2 week holiday cruise such as the OP envisages.

Of course, as I have said over and over again (if you bother to read) if you deviate from this pattern of usage you may well need to review your system and at some point solar becomes not just desirable but necessary to maintain the sort of lifestyle you choose. However, the OP is at a point where he basically has a 1980s system of two batteries, probably with 1,2 both switching which was fine then with no fridge, basic instruments, no autopilot, no pressure water. Now he wants to add modern gear and a new engine and update his electrics to suit. That is the brief I worked to - and is a long way away from your, Laminar Flow and Paul's requirements. To suggest as Paul did that he needs to hang as much solar on as he can fit is just nonsense and only shows that he probably was more interested in having a go at me than understanding the OPs question.

Solar is the answer in meeting the OPs charging requirements. Any shortfall can be made up in other ways as a top up. Solar will very often do the lion's share of charging. As others and myself have pointed out. You clearly have no understanding of how you can relatively easily live off solar power.

 

[PaulRainbow]

fine Paul , but what about if you want to run a grinder , drill , hoover / aquavac , shower sometimes .

The OP hasn't mentioned any of those, but if you wanted to use them there are obviously ways to do so, without explicitly requiring a generator.

So, not aimed at the OP:

A short run of the engine first thing in the morning gives a calorifier full of hot water and will put some charge into the batteries at the same time. Power tools would be better off if cordless, so might not need charging until back on shore power or have a small inverter. Same with the hoover, use a cordless one or an inverter. Using an inverter might mean an extra battery or two and it might mean some more solar, or running the engine for a bit longer.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Nowhere did I say that solar was not the "answer". What I said was that it it is not that important in meeting the Op's requirements. Once again. like so may people here you go off onto what you use to meet your requirements rather than understanding what the OP needs. He does not even have a fridge - let alone 2 big ones like you do.

What you said was "Solar is of limited use as a major source of charging to replace daily consumption as you can't get big enough panels on that size boat" which is clearly wrong, as others have also demonstrated.

You also said many other things that were wrong.

Tens of thousands of cruisers with modest boats like the OP has cruise very happily around the UK without solar. The combination of power saving (LEDs, good insulation etc, a decent size house bank, split charging system with a good alternator) is more than adequate. Most UK cruising has a reasonable amount of motoring, spending nights in a marina with shorepower to put back enough to balance out usage over a typical weekend or 2 week holiday cruise such as the OP envisages.

But the OP said "we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about "

So without shore power he needs to generate his own power, either by running the main engine, fitting a generator or from solar. That requirement is what the thread is about, you are the only person in this thread who insists that the OP does not need a means of providing his own power and you keep banging on about marina hopping and shore power, when the OP has clearly stated in post #1 that he doesn't do that.

 

[PaulRainbow]

<snip>

So with an hour motoring at the beginning and end of a sailing day gives me a deficit of 40amps a day. Solar would not make much of a dent in that.

Amp Hours is the correct term, not Amps. On a bright day, in the UK, a 100W panel can yield 40AH.

 

[ashtead]

Do I gather that a 100w panel on a bright day on say position in front of mast can hence power the Fridge therefore for 1 days usage (assuming fridge is kept closed of course) ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Do I gather that a 100w panel on a bright day on say position in front of mast can hence power the Fridge therefore for 1 days usage (assuming fridge is kept closed of course) ?

Obviously depends on the fridge, how well insulated, how many amps it draws and how long it runs for, but a well insulated fridge should more or less run from a 100W panel. I have 200W, which runs my fridge and everything else more or less all Summer.

 

[ghostlymoron]

You don't have the crew I have. Showers are an essential part of the sailing regime. And yes, it does take a load of water, but the whingeing would be awful if not provided for. I am just about to put a 2nd water tank in. Inverter for the hairdryer went in yesterday. This is all on the smaller boat, of course. The other one has all female facilities. If you don't you'll wonder why the partner/wife doesn't like sailing.

I still don't accept that daily shower is essential to the sailing regime - I don't even have a daily shower at home but I do wash daily by other means. If you're not careful your boat becomes progressively damp.

 

[ashtead]

If you have damp on board you need a dehumidifier I suggest which also dries clothes etc as well as after using the shower. I rather doubt a solar panel will help with that though. Thank you for replies re fridge - I have been planning to buy a deck panel but am concerned at longevity really .

 

[cherod]

The OP hasn't mentioned any of those, but if you wanted to use them there are obviously ways to do so, without explicitly requiring a generator.

So, not aimed at the OP:

A short run of the engine first thing in the morning gives a calorifier full of hot water and will put some charge into the batteries at the same time. Power tools would be better off if cordless, so might not need charging until back on shore power or have a small inverter. Same with the hoover, use a cordless one or an inverter. Using an inverter might mean an extra battery or two and it might mean some more solar, or running the engine for a bit longer.

( i know , not directly aimed at answering the OP , just a little thread drift )
ty , as i expected . , no problem adding a battery or two and running the engine a little more or adding a few more solars , i wonder how much would be needed for a few minutes hoover / aquavac , grinder etc tho . ( i should maybe open a new thread )

 

[dunedin]

This must be a first - but I disagree with Tranoma - but more commonly, agree with Paul Rainbow. Solar very worthwhile in the UK.

We have cruised extensively in the UK, mostly on anchor and generally about a week before we head into a pontoon - for food, water and give the batteries a top up. We run our front opening fridge 7x24 when cruising, as well as a lot of autopilot, twin plotters etc when sailing.
Absolutely no need for a generator. And though sail in the “frozen north”, the solar makes a big difference due to the long days (and also the good sunshine record in many outer Hebrides). We have two solar panels on the spray hood, and a roving panel able to be moved where needed (originally a fixed panel, but now semi flexible which seems very robust to the regular abuse it gets).
If stay on anchor for a few days eventually tend to run the engine for 20 minutes, but mainly as we have hot showers each day and by then the water has cooled down.