suitcase generator vs running the (main) engine?

[Tranona]

This is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Perhaps you should read what I actually said. You are talking about living on your boat static in a marina with your 2 panels fixed. The OP is talking about cruising, not static so a mixture of sailing and overnighting. I specifically said that solar would be unlikely to meet his daily consumption, although of course it would make a contribution.

Plenty of people manage cruising around the UK without solar using a mixture of a decent size bank, engine use and shorepower. When cruising not unusual to motor for 2 hours a day which will replace up to 50% of daily consumption. How many cruising boats of this size do you actually see around the UK with significant permanently mounted solar panels? As you say you need a gantry to get that amount of solar and that to me sounds like overkill on a sporty boat like a Storm.

Of course if his pattern of use changes, for example going off the beaten track or living aboard for long periods then a different strategy may be required, but I was responding to his requirements in post#11.

 

[fredrussell]

And not just the electrical output. Small generators are unsociable things in a quiet anchorage, especially when run on the foredeck to avoid gassing the crew.

Agreed. My brother’s Honda Eu2 genny is horribly loud under load. Surprisingly so. I’d rather spend an evening with Anne Widecombe than have one of those things running on my boat.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Perhaps you should read what I actually said.

I did, you said:

Solar is of limited use as a major source of charging to replace daily consumption as you can't get big enough panels on that size boat

As i said, that's wrong.

You are talking about living on your boat static in a marina with your 2 panels fixed. The OP is talking about cruising, not static so a mixture of sailing and overnighting. I specifically said that solar would be unlikely to meet his daily consumption, although of course it would make a contribution.

You have no idea how i use my boat, but it matters not whether it's moored in a marina or at anchor, if it's being powered by solar panels.

specifically said that solar would be unlikely to meet his daily consumption

As i said, this is wrong. My 200W of solar meet my daily consumption and keep the batteries fully charged, most of the time during the Summer.

Plenty of people manage cruising around the UK without solar using a mixture of a decent size bank, engine use and shorepower. When cruising not unusual to motor for 2 hours a day which will replace up to 50% of daily consumption.

You are contradicting yourself now. If typical cruising replaces 50% of daily consumption by using the engine, then only 50% needs to be provided by solar, i can produce 100% with 200W of solar, so that's twice as much as the typical cruiser needs.

How many cruising boats of this size do you actually see around the UK with significant permanently mounted solar panels?

More and more every month. But, it doesn't matter if there are 1 or 100000000000000000000000000000000 the simple fact is, a 33ft boat can carry enough solar to meet daily use during the Summer.

As you say you need a gantry to get that amount of solar and that to me sounds like overkill on a sporty boat like a Storm.

I did NOT say a gantry was needed, i said i had one, on a similar sized boat to a Storm. I've recently been involved in fitting many solar installations, several with gantrys, on boats ranging from 33-39ft, so it seems a lot of owners do not consider it overkill.

 

[coopec]

And not just the electrical output. Small generators are unsociable things in a quiet anchorage, especially when run on the foredeck to avoid gassing the crew.

I bought a 3.5kW generator which weighs 32kg. I can carry it on dry land but I wouldn't want to try carrying it on a rocking yacht.
Is it realistic to store/run it in a permanent locker attached to the pushpit? (Maybe the locker/cover would be removable to run) Alternatively I have a self draining fuel locker below deck which would probably accommodate the genset.

 

[Chae_73]

many thanks for all replies; most useful and certainly food for though.

to clarify a few things:

We don't have a fridge. Not ideal, but I have cruised without one before and one adapts... Possibly considering one of those Dometic 12v cooler boxes;

Not intending to live aboard for extended periods. Any long cruise would be broken up, so max time aboard in one go likely to be 2 weeks or so;

We are on a swinging mooring in the sailing season, may possibly be in a marina over winter, or else on the hard without ready access to mains power;

Not intending to install an arch / gantry - just don't think it would suit the boat.

 

[ctva]

Chae_73, similar set up to you with a 34 Jeanneau. I had the same issue and 10 years ago got the Honda 10EU to provide charge rather than the engine. Worked well as long as we were alone in an anchorage. Two years ago, I added a single 100w panel on the port dodger site. Fantastic. Added a second to the starboard side last week to balance up the boat. Simple tube along the top and bent to shape. The panels can rotate to vertical if the sun is on the wrong side but i've only done that once. As they are on opposite sides, wired in parallel. Only used the genny once since getting the panels, Loch Dunvegan when stormbound for 3 days. TBH, if the solar option had bern as cheap, I'd not have got the Honda.


PS, in the pic I have removed the port panel

 

[dgadee]

Not sure whether it would be more efficient. People generally warn against using the main diesel engine for battery charging alone, as it may lead to bore polishing. However, thousands of taxis spend countless hours at tickover without massive problems.

It would be ideal for me if running in neutral wasn't as damaging as we have been so frequently told. My problem is not power but hot water for the crew's morning shower. I had been thinking of getting a suitcase generator just for the immersion in the calorifier.

Is it damaging or not? Or just a bit?

 

[pvb]

It would be ideal for me if running in neutral wasn't as damaging as we have been so frequently told. My problem is not power but hot water for the crew's morning shower. I had been thinking of getting a suitcase generator just for the immersion in the calorifier.

Is it damaging or not? Or just a bit?

Who knows? It might be one of those old sailing myths! As I said, it doesn't seem to be a problem for taxis. Many boat diesels are based on small industrial engines, when used in site plant these often rumble away all day with intermittent periods of harder work.

 

[Chae_73]

In your situation I agree with others. First thing is to replace the engine - the Beta 25 is a popular choice for your boat

This thread has got me reconsidering replacing the engine this winter.

Current lump is the OEM (33 years old) VP 2002, 18 HP twin cylinder.

Replacement would likely be Beta or Nanni. It seems Beta and Nanni, whilst both Kubota based, diverge after the 20 HP, 719cc triple, which looks to be based on the same block in both ranges and weighs circa 100kg (Nanni quoted weight is a bit lighter than Beta).

Next up in the Nanni range is a 30 HP 1012cc engine weighing 136kg. I'm thinking this will be too big, too heavy and unnecessarily powerful. Next up for Beta is a 898cc 25 HP unit weighing 113kg.

Any reason that the 20 HP models from either source would not be a sufficient?

 

[Tranona]

You have answered the question yourself really. I suggested the Beta 25 because it is the only 25 on the market and is worth having the extra power for very little extra weight and size. It fills that gap where the 30 would be overpowered. 20hp is fine up to about 4000kgs and your boat is a bit over that. Westerly had the samee issue when the boat was new - big jump to 30 is OTT and boat is sporty, but they offered it as an option on heavier more cruisy boats.

 

[Tranona]

As i said, that's wrong.

Still not sure why you continue to pick holes and press things that are just not appropriate rather than reading what the OP intends to do. I DO know how you use your boat - you tell everybody here almost weekly - and it is very different from the OP (and the vast majority of weekend/ summer holiday cruisers).

The vast majority of such cruisers do not need lots of solar and the gantry that is needed to use them effectively. The sort of set up I described is very common (guess you have seen lots like it) and perfectly adequate for what the OP intends doing. A small solar panel on the coachroof would (as I suggested) be good to top up the house bank in the week while the boat is on a swinging mooring.

BTW I also said that the strategy would likely change if the pattern of usage changed, for example cruising in more remote areas or going liveaboard for longer periods - but those are NOT his plans.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I’ve got 110w of solar. No fridge, iPad plotter and full Triton2 system + tp32 which I use a lot and all LED lighting. 220ah house battery. Most I need is half an hour engine in the morning often not even that. Battery never takes more than 15amps initial charge. I am in the med so that’s a consideration but I can sail for as long as my food and water lasts ( about 20 days without care).

 

[dgadee]

I’ve got 110w of solar. No fridge, iPad plotter and full Triton2 system + tp32 which I use a lot and all LED lighting. 220ah house battery. Most I need is half an hour engine in the morning often not even that. Battery never takes more than 15amps initial charge. I am in the med so that’s a consideration but I can sail for as long as my food and water lasts ( about 20 days without care).

Lots of canned food?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Still not sure why you continue to pick holes and press things that are just not appropriate rather than reading what the OP intends to do. I DO know how you use your boat - you tell everybody here almost weekly - and it is very different from the OP (and the vast majority of weekend/ summer holiday cruisers).

The vast majority of such cruisers do not need lots of solar and the gantry that is needed to use them effectively. The sort of set up I described is very common (guess you have seen lots like it) and perfectly adequate for what the OP intends doing. A small solar panel on the coachroof would (as I suggested) be good to top up the house bank in the week while the boat is on a swinging mooring.

BTW I also said that the strategy would likely change if the pattern of usage changed, for example cruising in more remote areas or going liveaboard for longer periods - but those are NOT his plans.

You never know when to give up, do you ?

For a start, you DO NOT know how i use my boat, it is none of your business and is not relative to the thread or to solar installations in general. It does not matter whether a boat is berthed in a marina, sat at anchor, tied to a buoy or under sail, if the power requirements are met by solar, they are met by solar. My boat can sit in the marina for a month without shore power or i can be sailing for a month without shore power. Any boat with sufficient solar power to meet it's daily power requirements can do the same.

It's not rocket science, so i don't understand why you struggle to grasp the simple concept the it just works. Typical case of you always knowing best, even when you just make stuff up that has no actual factual basis.

You keep insisting that the OP could not yield enough power from the amount of solar he could fit to his boat, despite my telling you i do exactly that, despite others in this thread saying the same, despite scores of other threads where other users report doing the same.

A small panel on the coachroof will NOT yield enough power to keep up with usage, so it's not relevant to the question the OP posed about a generator, where myself and almost every other person in this thread has suggested solar.

You also keep saying that a gantry is is needed, which is just more nonsense. Almost every mid 30ft boat can carry enough solar without a gantry, i chose one because that's what i wanted, not because it's the only way.

Now, put your spade away and stop digging.

 

[Stemar]

My problem is not power but hot water for the crew's morning shower.

Who knows? It might be one of those old sailing myths!

I can't help thinking that the need for a morning shower at anchor is a modern sailing myth.

I'm reminded of a story told here many years ago of someone who invited a friend and his family - wife and 2 daughters IIRC, thinking it would be nice to go off for a week visiting delightful anchorages. The actual history of the trip was a trudge from marina to marina to fill up the empty water tank every day.

OK the weekly bath whether I needed it or not when I was a child is maybe a step too far in the direction of water conservation but, degadee, you aren't encouraging me to fix the water heater on Jazzcat!

 

[Laminar Flow]

This is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The OP has a 33ft boat, which can accomodate more than enough solar for his modest needs. My Westerly Discus is a similar size to the OPs Storm and is fitted with a pair of 100W panels, connected via a Victron MPPT controller. During a UK Summer i can stay aboard for weeks/months on end, powering my fridge, TV, sound system, water pumps, lights, laptop/phone chargers etc without the need for shore power. There are odd times, when we get a few cloudy days in a row, when i have to turn the mains charger on, but not many.

To the OP: i'd forget the noisy generator and fit as much solar as you have room for. Some panels on the guard wires work OK, or you could splash out on a gantry (which is what i have). On the odd occasion in the Summer when the Sun doesn't shine enough you might need to run the main engine for a while, but it will be quieter than the generator, something less to buy and lug around, less petrol to buy and lug around and you'll get a free tank of hot water (assuming you have a calorifier).

I completely agree.

Our boat is 31.5' long
We started at the same point as the OP. We had two 100A house batteries, charged trough the engine alternator, a 40A shore power-charger and, when needed, a 1000W suitcase to supplement when away from the mains. This was not a satisfactory arrangement and gave us very little time away from a dedicated power source. We need refrigeration, for medical reasons, it is not an option. Each year we live 3-5 months aboard in Northern climes and as far North as the Baltic, North Sea, Germany, Holland and Brittany, and sometimes into the fall until there has been frost on the docks.

Our solution was to upgrade our house bank to 2x 230A flooded and mount 300W of solid frame solar on the wheelhouse roof, charging is done through a 60A Tracer MPPT. The 300W was attained with six 50W panels each with a separation diode, giving us 12 individual fields to mitigate the effects of shading.

In five years we have not once run the engine or the suitcase to charge the batteries, even when we stay weeks in a place without power access or moving the boat. Fridge runs 24/7, we have LEDs in the cabin and at the mast head, use a Webasto, AP and charge devices. I used to tie off the boom to cut down on any shading; I no longer bother. On a sunny summer day we appear fully charged by 10.00 o'clock, 14.00 if its cloudy. Even during a late summer in the Baltic and Fall in Holland we were able to meet our essential power needs.
We cruise btw and spend relatively little time in marinas.

 

[Tranona]

You never know when to give up, do you ?

Now, put your spade away and stop digging.

I am afraid it is you that is digging a hole for yourself.

This thread (and the OPs original question is nothing directly to do with solar - in fact until you waded in they were only mentioned in passing by others - some correctly pointing out that they were not necessarily appropriate to the OP's situation. Then you come in (post#20) effectively saying they are essential. Why because you can to quote "stay on board for weeks/months on end, powering my fridge, TV, sound system, water pumps, lights, lap top/phone chargers..." (see what I did there - we DO know how you use your boat and you have equipped it to enable you to do this).

NONE of this, however, is in the least bit relevant to the OP's situation - currently does not even have a fridge. He has a 1980s boat with very basic electrics and wants to upgrade for cruising - or in his words "going a bit further afield" and installing heating, autohelm, instruments and phone charging. Not even mention of a fridge or pressurised water.

No different from the vast majority of coastal cruisers around the UK who get on just fine without resorting to festooning the boat with solar panels. Our club marina has over 400 cruising boats - I can count on my fingers the number who have significant amounts of solar permanently or semi permanently mounted. Quite a few have small panels for topping up, but even then most stopped doing that when we installed shorepower for every berth.

I know what you can do with solar - as you say not rocket science, and if the OP has said he was off to warm climes to liveaboard then solar would be right up there to meet power requirements - but he is not. He actually asked originally whether using a suitcase generator rather than running the engine to charge batteries before further explaining what he was trying to achieve.

I know from the way you have answered other questions of a similar nature that you can come up with sensible suggestions - just not this time, preferring to start by misunderstanding something I wrote and then going off onto a crusade for something that does not fit the OPs needs.

Even when I pointed this out to you and directed you back to the Ops posts you still keep digging a hole for yourself without offering anything useful for the OP.

 

[Tranona]

I completely agree.

Our boat is 31.5' long
We started at the same point as the OP. We had two 100A house batteries, charged trough the engine alternator, a 40A shore power-charger and, when needed, a 1000W suitcase to supplement when away from the mains. This was not a satisfactory arrangement and gave us very little time away from a dedicated power source. We need refrigeration, for medical reasons, it is not an option. Each year we live 3-5 months aboard in Northern climes and as far North as the Baltic, North Sea, Germany, Holland and Brittany, and sometimes into the fall until there has been frost on the docks.

Our solution was to upgrade our house bank to 2x 230A flooded and mount 300W of solid frame solar on the wheelhouse roof, charging is done through a 60A Tracer MPPT. The 300W was attained with six 50W panels each with a separation diode, giving us 12 individual fields to mitigate the effects of shading.

In five years we have not once run the engine or the suitcase to charge the batteries, even when we stay weeks in a place without power access or moving the boat. Fridge runs 24/7, we have LEDs in the cabin and at the mast head, use a Webasto, AP and charge devices. I used to tie off the boom to cut down on any shading; I no longer bother. On a sunny summer day we appear fully charged by 10.00 o'clock, 14.00 if its cloudy. Even during a late summer in the Baltic and Fall in Holland we were able to meet our essential power needs.
We cruise btw and spend relatively little time in marinas.

Sorry, PLEASE read what the OP wants - his requirements are NOT the same as yours. They might be similar to Paul's, so not unreasonable to agree with him - except in stating that I was wrong in my answer to the original question. He is NOT intending to spend weeks living aboard, let alone with frost on the decks.

 

[Laminar Flow]

looking to get our boat kitted out for some (hopefully) longer journeys next year.

we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about. The boat isn't full of bells and whistles so power use isn't huge but will run to lighting, forced air heating (hopefully!), auto-helm, instruments, charging phones, tablet etc

Ah, perhaps I'm dyslexic and if so I do apologize, which part of "longer journeys and we don't marina hop" did I fail to read. This is precisely what we do, we just do it for a few months at a time. The only difference is our requirement for a fridge.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I know from the way you have answered other questions of a similar nature that you can come up with sensible suggestions - just not this time, preferring to start by misunderstanding something I wrote and then going off onto a crusade for something that does not fit the OPs needs.

No misunderstanding, you were perfectly clear in what you wrote:

Solar is of limited use as a major source of charging to replace daily consumption as you can't get big enough panels on that size boat

Very clear and very wrong. At that point, posts 4, 8, 9, 10 and 11 mention solar.

Even when I pointed this out to you and directed you back to the Ops posts you still keep digging a hole for yourself without offering anything useful for the OP.

The OP states:

"we don't generally marina hop so being able to have enough electricity to do what we need to do is a factor we are thinking about. "

and

"one possible solution is to carry a suitcase generator"

There are other possibilities and as many have stated, solar is one of them. Your claim that enough cannot be fitted to the OPs boat is simply incorrect. You have tried to wriggle and distort things to cover your incorrect statement, rather than accept it's just wrong. It doesn't matter that the OP has no plans to liveaboard, that's just more of your smoke screen, using the OPs boat for a day or so will require the batteries to be charged, never mind the two weeks he's mentioned.

He doesn't have to fit solar, or more batteries or anything else, he can fit whatever he chooses, but he certainly should not be influenced by your incorrect claims in the thread.