Streaming Warps

[Gargleblaster]

Has anyone any experience of streaming warps while laying-a-hull from the bow? I was in a situation where with very little notice of an approaching storm I managed to get the sail in and stream warps from the stern which may have prevented a complete rollover. However because of waves breaking over the boat, my storm boards which faced into the wind and waves by about 5 degrees leaked a lot of water. The slight angle of my stern into the waves, meant it lifted in the breaking waves and may have prevented a rollover. I would like to compare experiences with someone who had streamed warps from the bow in a similar situation, for an article for a club magazine I am writing.

 

[Sailfree]

Can't answer your question but would love to read your article when you have finished.

Have learnt so much in the past on this forum from others experiences!

 

[Talbot]

suspect there is some data in the Drag Device Data Base here

 

[KellysEye]

Warps from the bow won't create enough drag to hold the bows up, indeed I can imagine that they might be positively dangerous and hold the boat beam on. To hold the bows up you need a purpose built parachute anchor.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The implication of streaming from the bows is that the boat will be going backwards moderately quickly - quicker than with a proper sea anchor. This is likely to expose the rudder to considerable stress. Also, because windage at the bow is generally greater than elsewhere, the liklihood of the boat actually lying bow-to-wind is questionable.

 

[Gargleblaster]

The thing is when I streamed warps from the stern, I still lay mostly side on to the waves and wind, and moved sideways at about 4 knots. Possibly my rudder [a spade] was more exposed with my stern facing up by 5 degrees into the waves and the wind than it would have been if I had streamed the warps off the bow. One of the recommendations I want to make as a result of my expereince is that I should have taken my warps forward and streamed them from the bow, to prevent the storm boards being exposed to the weather and the resulting problem I had with water ingress. I would like to hear from someone who has streamed from the bow, even though the situation may have been completely different. One of the issues with streaming anything from the bow is the physical ability to do it when single handed. I had only two hours between F5 and F10 and consider my self lucky to have got my main tied down onto the boom in the quickly changing conditions.
Another boat that I have communicated with that was in the same depression as myself stated he was unable to get his para anchor out in the time of the storm hitting. There were other problems such as he had recently refitted his mast and one of his last jobs was getting his para anchor ready for deployment.

 

[Deleted member 478]

Heard about a boat that went out in 25 knots to learn how to deploy their para anchor. The mistake they made was to take it out of its bag before attempting to toss it into the sea. The wind caught it, it filled with air and launched itself in a similar manner to a parasail behind a speedboat and off they went at several knots heading downwind.

They eventually cut the bridle.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Part of the problem is that different types of boat behave differently in the same conditions, so require different tactics.

In your situation, whatever you were streaming from the stern was not creating enough drag to pull the stern around into the wind - but then of course if you had suceeded in doing that, your wash board would have been even more exposed to the weather!

There was a very good book by Lin and Larry Pardy on heavy weather tactics for different types of boat - can't remember the title.

The Goose has a very fine entry at the stern on the waterline so rides stern seas very comfortably, but does leave the hatch exposed to the weather- The biggest seas I've had to deal with in her were 20 feet plus.

We have a largish drogue which we attach to a long warp (200feet) which, the idea is, we stream until the boat is riding comfortably..
However, my instinct is that when circumstances permit, to stream it from the bow.
The other suggestion is to stream via a yoke which helps you control the angle at which you lie to the seas. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[TigaWave]

Most, if not all bad weather situatiuons I have experienced th edirection of the wind has very little to do with the wave direction, so lie to the wind with anchor or warps could result in an unpleasant angle to the waves. I have always ended up running off under storm sail at an appropriate angle to the breaking waves, which is also not always the swell direction.

I don't think in practce there is always a simple chuck out the anchor or warps or whatever and sit it out solution. See what the boat prefers and treat her as gently as you can

 

[Guest]

A few lines from the bow in those conditions would not have been enough to lower the force per line to a manageable amount for our boat. The problem is the average might be OK, but the peak loads are terrible. You have to hold back waves.

I agree with Twister_Ken that reversing the boat direction is not the way to go!

But I wonder if you could get into a situation where there was slight forward motion but the warps held the wind just forward of beam, in the same manner as a hove to. Any increase speed would mean the warps would drag more aft and slow the speed. This would mean our boat would leave its massive keel wake. I was so impressed when I first saw it. Huge waves just died next to us.

All I know is that I would not be able to experiment in those conditions. Storms are not the time for improvisation. The 1/2" hail was the bit I had not planned for.

 

[Poignard]

I was thinking about this recently in a F7/8 whilst secured to a mooring. Having run out of other things to read I was reading Eric Hiscock ideas on the subject of sea anchors. He was not in favour of streaming sea anchors, or drogues, from the bow because the yacht will lie side on to the sea and make sternway, possibly straining the rudder.

I noticed that even at slack water my boat would not lie head to wind.

Conclusion: if she won't lie head to wind with the bow held by a mooring, she never will with a sea anchor.

This applies to a long-keel, deep-draught 28 foot sloop, by the way. When I did my Lifeboatman's course in the Merchant Navy we were told we should lie to a sea anchor streamed from the bow [and use oil] but that applies to a boat with no rigging.

 

[Salty John]

I agree. My choices, given adequate sea room, are:
1. Run before, preferably with storm sails set, but under bare poles in extreme circumstances (Force 10 -12 off Cape Town). I've never successfully towed warps, (they seemed a huge complication rather than any kind of benefit), and I've never used a sea anchor. I'd only consider a sea anchor if a lee shore came into the equation.
2. Heave-to. If you know the right combination of sail area for your particular boat this can be the most comfortable option.

Chucking things over the side, especially when you have no real idea what the effect will be, seems a bit experimental to me. Keep it simple is a much better option, I think.

 

[silver-fox]

[ QUOTE ]
I have always ended up running off under storm sail at an appropriate angle to the breaking waves, which is also not always the swell direction.

I don't think in practice there is always a simple chuck out the anchor or warps or whatever and sit it out solution. See what the boat prefers and treat her as gently as you can

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you on this one Tigawave. Modern hulls don't offer any significant grip on the water forward of the keel - so all the text books I have read reckon that deploying a sea anchor off the bow will hold you around 80 degrees off the wind i.e. beam on! I for one am not brave enough for that. My personal preference is to run before bad weather if you have the room.

In the worst weather I have been in, we ended up running before it at an angle of around 45 degrees under bare poles at around 4- 6 knots. I didn't consider it necessary to trail warps or reduce our speed because (a) we had the sea room (b)at that speed we had good control and (c) our speed reduced the frequency with which waves overtook us, eased the motion and made life relatively comfortable. When the breaking crests threatened us we ran dead before the wave for the moment the crest passed under the boat and then returned to our angle of 45 degrees as the crest passed under the mid section. We ran at an angle because I was trying to avoid surfing down the waves and the attendant risk of tripping and pitchpoling. The blow lasted for 36 hours and although we did get pooped a couple of times no real problems were experienced with either the cockpit draining, the washboards or water getting below.

We were onboard a 30 year old Jeanneau Sunfizz 40 which we were delivering to the UK from the MED. The boat handled everything admirably, was easy to control and, I am pleased to report, nothing of any importance broke. I mention the boat because I see so much adverse comment about light displacement modern production boats with large open cockpits not being able to take the heavy weather. Well this one did! Although I have to recognise that being built 30 years ago it may be very different from today's production boats.

The best and most considered advice I have read on the subject of heavy weather is by Hal Roth in his book "How to Sail Around the World". He includes a whole section on sea anchors and associated research. Eric Hiscock was none to keen on the idea either (see Voyaging under Sail) Until I read something that I find more credible I shall follow Hal Roth's advice to the letter.

That said, the great thing about sailing is we are each free to skipper our own boats and do it our way.

 

[Gargleblaster]

[ QUOTE ]
Most, if not all bad weather situatiuons I have experienced th edirection of the wind has very little to do with the wave direction, so lie to the wind with anchor or warps could result in an unpleasant angle to the waves. I have always ended up running off under storm sail at an appropriate angle to the breaking waves, which is also not always the swell direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

My limited experience [cyclone in the Pacific and a storm in the Atlantic, plus a few gales] has always been that the waves and wind tend to come from the same direction. Or at least anything above f8 the waves tend to conform to the wind direction within a half an hour or so. Interesting enough because of the wave frequency in the Western Pacific I was able to reach under bare poles by staying in the troughs [my mast did come down during this experience but that was later when I was out of the worst of the wind]. In the Atlantic I find the waves are not as regular and much more difficult to deal with. For instance in the storm I encountered I tried both running and reaching but was very concerned about being overwhelmed by a wave in the particular conditions. The most comfortable strategy was to lie-a-hull with warps streaming to pull my stern just slightly into the waves/wind, which eased the rolling slightly as the waves picked up my stern first. Even with the waves breaking over the boat it felt like I would keep floating, although I was expecting to do a 360 degree roll at any moment for the time the storm lasted [36 hours].