Storm tactics and choice of drogue (if that held to be best approach)

[Dockhead]

The best advert that sold me the JSD was Roger Taylor’s’ account of riding out a serious storm in the arctic in a Corribee with one. If a little day sailor can be kept safe in a big sea with little drama with a JSD then that is the ultimate safety device for me and my 10m boat!

Ah, yes, Mingming. That story, and a story from Jean Socrates, is retold here: A Jordan Series Drogue can be a lifesaver – Yachting World. That will be a good read for the OP. From the article:

"The first time was during a severe gale off south-west Iceland. For some reason this storm generated some of the steepest waves I have seen. Occasional wave faces looked nearly vertical.

"Once the drogue had been deployed it seemed as if all the potential danger had been defused. As the drogue is set from the stern, the boat lay quietly in its natural attitude, absolutely stern on to the waves, with just a few degrees of yaw either way. We moved gently downwind at up to one and a half knots. As each crest passed under the yacht we accelerated gently forward until the drogue applied its force.

"Tailored to the displacement of my yacht, the drogue applied its force softly; not too much and not too little. It was an extraordinary sensation. As I lay on the cabin sole I felt the boat surge forward then, with a loud creaking as the braking started, gently slowing. There was a moment of near weightlessness as I was lifted off the sole then placed softly down again. It was like a kind of horizontal bungee jump.

"I rode to the drogue for 17 hours in total comfort without a hint of a broach or a capsize. Retrieval was not a problem as I lost the drogue through chafe (an error of seamanship on my part). Fortunately, the worst was nearly over by then and a homemade B&Q sandbag sea anchor saw us through the rest, although without the smoothness of the JSD. . . ."

This is also relevant to anyone who still thinks that lying stern to the waves will mean waves crash your rudder.

 

[ducked]

There's a USCG analysis available on line showing that a drogue trailed from astern is safest but keep your washboards on lines attached to the boat.
I have two builders bags that I have used in series . They work and are really strong. Much better than my parasail series drogue that was shredded under the load.

Did you use the builders bags sea-anchor stylee off the bows or (binary) series drogue off the stern?

 

[ducked]

Ah, yes, Mingming. That story, and a story from Jean Socrates, is retold here: A Jordan Series Drogue can be a lifesaver – Yachting World. That will be a good read for the OP. From the article:

"The first time was during a severe gale off south-west Iceland. For some reason this storm generated some of the steepest waves I have seen. Occasional wave faces looked nearly vertical.

"Once the drogue had been deployed it seemed as if all the potential danger had been defused. As the drogue is set from the stern, the boat lay quietly in its natural attitude, absolutely stern on to the waves, with just a few degrees of yaw either way. We moved gently downwind at up to one and a half knots. As each crest passed under the yacht we accelerated gently forward until the drogue applied its force.

"Tailored to the displacement of my yacht, the drogue applied its force softly; not too much and not too little. It was an extraordinary sensation. As I lay on the cabin sole I felt the boat surge forward then, with a loud creaking as the braking started, gently slowing. There was a moment of near weightlessness as I was lifted off the sole then placed softly down again. It was like a kind of horizontal bungee jump.

"I rode to the drogue for 17 hours in total comfort without a hint of a broach or a capsize. Retrieval was not a problem as I lost the drogue through chafe (an error of seamanship on my part). Fortunately, the worst was nearly over by then and a homemade B&Q sandbag sea anchor saw us through the rest, although without the smoothness of the JSD. . . ."

This is also relevant to anyone who still thinks that lying stern to the waves will mean waves crash your rudder.

Dont quite understand what she means by "I use cable ties to hold the bridle out of the water.." and was surprised by "He finds it best to deploy the drogue while hove-to and flakes the JSD in the cockpit ready for deploying."
I suppose he turns and runs after deployment, though this is not explicitly stated.

 

[Minerva]

Dont quite understand what she means by "I use cable ties to hold the bridle out of the water.." and was surprised by "He finds it best to deploy the drogue while hove-to and flakes the JSD in the cockpit ready for deploying."
I suppose he turns and runs after deployment, though this is not explicitly stated.

My interpretation is that her drought is permanently rigged and when non in use the bridle is cable tied up and out the water… the cable ties presumably will break as soon as it’s deployed.

 

[lustyd]

And they don't break underwater

I never said they did. They do lift the stern and force water under it though.

 

[Dockhead]

I never said they did. They do lift the stern and force water under it though.

They don't do that, either.

Lying to a JSD you are always making way and always have positive flow over the rudder. That's one of their main benefits compared to lying to a para anchor, where you are almost stopped, and do get taken aback. Protecting the rudder is one of the several reasons to lie stern-to your drogue.

 

[Dockhead]

Dont quite understand what she means by "I use cable ties to hold the bridle out of the water.." and was surprised by "He finds it best to deploy the drogue while hove-to and flakes the JSD in the cockpit ready for deploying."
I suppose he turns and runs after deployment, though this is not explicitly stated.

Yes, exactly. A number of people do it like that.

I think it makes perfect sense IF you are deploying the drogue in conditions where it's still safe to heave-to.

I personally don't do that, because I don't use the drogue until way past the point where I would not be comfortable heaving-to.

Which is maybe not right -- maybe I should be doing it earlier. But my boat, which is a lot bigger than Mingming, is very stable running off under bare poles or a scrap of jib, so I don't usually start to get nervous before F9 at least.

I've sailed in the waters where that Mingming story happened and can confirm that that kind of weather is common there.

 

[lustyd]

They don't do that, either

Have you ever been at sea?

 

[Dockhead]

Have you ever been at sea?

What kind of a question is that? Have you ever used a drogue or sea anchor?

I've been to the edge of the Arctic ice cap in my own boat, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, and much more, some of that in the company of other members of this Forum, in waters where you can't just duck into a harbour to avoid a big storm, and across the Atlantic in other people's boats. How about you?

 

[lustyd]

What kind of a question is that?

Just that you don’t seem to understand how the sea or boats move, so thought I’d ask.

 

[Dockhead]

Just that you don’t seem to understand how the sea or boats move, so thought I’d ask.

You've never used one, unlike some people in this thread (not just me), and you only guess how it works. You haven't even done any reading on the subject. Your guess is wrong. Just because the wave passes you stern to bow, does not indeed mean that the water under the boat is moving in that direction. Waves don't work that way.

If you would try one, or even do a little reading on the subject, you would see that there are no reported cases of problems with rudders with series drogues; that rudder protection is one of their advantages.

You would also discover that series drogues are now the choice of 90%+ sailors who sail in high latitudes and are the choice of all the well-known high latitude sailors including Steve Dashew, John Harries, Peter Smith, Skip Novak, etc. etc. etc..

A good start for remedial reading is the Morgan's Cloud "Heavy Weather Tactics" book, especially this chapter: Just Get a Series Drogue Designed By Don Jordan…Dammit!.

Linked earlier, with real-life stories from Jean Socrates, Roger Taylor, and others: A Jordan Series Drogue can be a lifesaver – Yachting World. A quote: "As each crest passed under the yacht we accelerated gently forward until the drogue applied its force."

Then there's Steve Dashew's "Surviving the Storm", which is a volume of his Cruising Encyclopedia. Dashew writes: ". . . a key element of [the] use of the series drogue is that the system must be connected to the stern of the boat. This has the rudder upwind where it is least likely to be damaged, as the boat briefly accelerates forward before the series drogue takes up slack . . . " p.435. Dashew uses a series drogue.

There are many cases of rudder damage, on the contrary, to boats anchored by the bows to sea anchors. That is because, contrary to the way you imagine it, a breaking wave forces the boat to move in the same direction, but the water in which the rudder is immersed does not move with the wave. A yacht anchored from the bow will make sternway as the wave passes under, unless the para anchor is really large, and this endangers the rudder.

"Boats riding to a sea anchor will make some sternway. The more severe the motion astern the more grave the threat to the steering system. A rudder hinged on the keel or transom might even be forced against its pintles and sheared off. To counter the backdowns induced by wind and wave, lock the rudder amidships. Lash the wheel rather than relying on the friction brake. Better yet, mount your emergency tiller and lash it." Sea Anchors & Drogues - Practical Sailor

There is a great deal of discussion in the literature about this, and about the critical importance of sizing a para anchor deployed from the bow, so that the boat makes as little sternway as possible, to avoid rudder damage. See: Analysis & Lessons Learned: Sea Anchors | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base. This problem does not exist with drogues deployed from the stern, because wave action causes you to make way ahead, not astern, which keeps water flowing over the rudder in the right direction. I've experienced it myself first hand, but don't take my word for it -- there are a multitude of reports.

 

[HunterWanderer]

Did you use the builders bags sea-anchor stylee off the bows or (binary) series drogue off the stern?

I use them as a drogue off the stern.
The load on them is enormous and the lines shake under the tension.
I use 2 lines of 12mm from each stern quarter cleat to 2 handles on the first bag and another line from those handles to two handles on the second bag. All lines about 25m long.
Builders bags are designed to take 2.5 tons with a good safety factor probably 2x.
I think it would be difficult to make a Jordan drogue as strong. Just look at the size of the webbing and the size of stitching .
The calming effect on the cresting waves is amazing. It's a modern take on what the old sailors did by trailing knotted warps.

 

[ducked]

I use them as a drogue off the stern.
The load on them is enormous and the lines shake under the tension.
I use 2 lines of 12mm from each stern quarter cleat to 2 handles on the first bag and another line from those handles to two handles on the second bag. All lines about 25m long.
Builders bags are designed to take 2.5 tons with a good safety factor probably 2x.
I think it would be difficult to make a Jordan drogue as strong. Just look at the size of the webbing and the size of stitching .
The calming effect on the cresting waves is amazing. It's a modern take on what the old sailors did by trailing knotted warps.

Interesting. I've heard of them being used, but thought (or may have just assumed) that it was sea-anchor stylee. They have obvious attractions, being cheap, very strong and readily available.

I suppose the (or at least a) question would be whether they are too much the immovable object, given that the JSD is supposed to have some "give" to limit line and wave loading on the boat, and also to distribute the resistance over multiple waves so it isn't upset by local wave action.

Re "It's a modern take on what the old sailors did by trailing knotted warps." I'd think that would be old modern sailors trailing modern knotted warps.

Because I suspect I might be too lazy to build myself a JSD, I've wondered about the possibility of developing knot and loop patterns that could approach JSD performance but with simpler construcion, perhaps incorporating woven webbing or "police line" plastic sheet loops to increase the drag, and if I ever get my boat in the water I might try some.

I doubt I'll be going looking for extreme weather. though, so I might try them for emergency steering

 

[Dockhead]

. . . Because I suspect I might be too lazy to build myself a JSD, I've wondered about the possibility of developing knot and loop patterns that could approach JSD performance but with simpler construcion, perhaps incorporating woven webbing or "police line" plastic sheet loops to increase the drag, and if I ever get my boat in the water I might try some. . .

You can use a JSD for steering, by not letting out all of it.

But a simple single cone drogue works great for steering, and is a lot easier to retrieve, so maybe worth having separately.

Sailors trailed warps for centuries and that works fine if the conditions are not too extreme. But by the time you start weaving loops and stuff into a line, you might as well just use the cones, which are easier. You just tie them into the line with a pair each of ribbons fore and aft of the cone -- it's not laborious. We made one with 164 cones over a three or four day passage; it's pleasant busy work you can do when you have spare time. If you use Dyneema (or Acera like we did), this also saves a lot of work because splicing single braid is like 10x easier than double braid or three strand. You want to step down the size of the rope over the length of the drogue, and then there's the leader and bridle, so a fair amount of splicing.

 

[HunterWanderer]

Interesting. I've heard of them being used, but thought (or may have just assumed) that it was sea-anchor stylee. They have obvious attractions, being cheap, very strong and readily available.

I suppose the (or at least a) question would be whether they are too much the immovable object, given that the JSD is supposed to have some "give" to limit line and wave loading on the boat, and also to distribute the resistance over multiple waves so it isn't upset by local wave action.

Re "It's a modern take on what the old sailors did by trailing knotted warps." I'd think that would be old modern sailors trailing modern knotted warps.

Because I suspect I might be too lazy to build myself a JSD, I've wondered about the possibility of developing knot and loop patterns that could approach JSD performance but with simpler construcion, perhaps incorporating woven webbing or "police line" plastic sheet loops to increase the drag, and if I ever get my boat in the water I might try some.

I doubt I'll be going looking for extreme weather. though, so I might try them for emergency steering

Providing the drogue is effective (either jsd or builders bags) the load is dependant on the severity of the storm.
Making series drogues strong enough is a challenge and maybe why they are not available commercially. Although builders bags aren't sold as drogues they are built to be safe with 2.5 tons of aggregate. So easily able to hold 1 ton of water.
I havent noticed any snatching or sudden load. Just continuous heavy load.
.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… Making series drogues strong enough is a challenge and maybe why they are not available commercially. …
.

Oceanbrake makes JSDs to order. OceanBrake

Making a JSD strong is not a challenge, it’s quite straightforward if the design is followed. There have been some improvements over the years in cone design, hemmed edges rather than plain, heat sealed edges and bridle design. There is a plethora of real world experience in building and using a JSD on the web.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… I think it would be difficult to make a Jordan drogue as strong. Just look at the size of the webbing and the size of stitching .
The calming effect on the cresting waves is amazing. It's a modern take on what the old sailors did by trailing knotted warps.

Not only is a JSD stronger than the builders bag, it also has a huge amount of redundancy built in. It is designed so that a length of cones, if they break out a wave, the remaining sets of cones continue to work. You can do the arithmetic on the areas of the cones and compare to the builder’s area, it is significantly more on the JSD. JSD calming affect and damping on wave acceleration has also been claimed to be amazing in the many reports of them being used.

Sailors have used tyres, builders bags, looped warps, warps, anchors, chain, sail bags, buckets to slow a boat down, and if it works, great. The JSD is a solution designed for a vessel’s displacement and works well, is proven.

 

[doug748]

Research on best option for an emergency drogue tends to bring up broader questions on storm tactics. Grossly simplified, there are 3 approaches:

"the Pardeys" sea anchor off the bow - it works for them and the sort of boats they sail but I don't like it as I just don't think blade rudders will stand being reversed into a violent sea

Heaving to; Skip Novak only sees the downsides of streaming anything - ropes, drogues whatever and points to loads on attachment points and difficulty of setting and recovering. He advocates heaving to. I find with heaving to (and I've done it with a centreboard gaffer and longish fin keel) it's hard to get the stern at the right angle to the waves - I would feel uncomfortable with this as a main tactic

- running downwind with a drogue to slow the boat. Intuitively I feel this is safest approach (with plenty of sea room obviously). I may not be alone in having got into this situation in the past through poor seamanship, but without the benefit of anything to slow the boat down.

Which takes me onto choice of drogue. I think "Jordan" is a pattern rather than a brand so finding one in UK might be an issue - Oceanbrake do something like it. PBO did a comparative review about 10 years ago and considered the "best" was the Ocean Signal Para Drogue which can also be used as emergency steering.

Any thoughts?

As we have seen there is no room for bluffing on this topic, however purely from reading rather than experience..

There is a third option if you have the type of boat designed to go well to windward, relatively narrow beam, deepish keel, lots of ballast, skeg etc. That is sailing to windward under severely reduced rig. Willy Kerr advocated this and has said he would set his steering gear to a comfortable angle off the wind and go to bed.

He sailed the same Contessa his son took to finish the 1979 Fastnet, using the same mode, albeit actively sailed with a young, strong crew.

.

 

[Dockhead]

Oceanbrake makes JSDs to order. OceanBrake

Making a JSD strong is not a challenge, it’s quite straightforward if the design is followed. There have been some improvements over the years in cone design, hemmed edges rather than plain, heat sealed edges and bridle design. There is a plethora of real world experience in building and using a JSD on the web.

Indeed. JSD has been the predominant drag device for probably 25 years by now, so there's a ton of real-world experience, which has led to a number of improvements to the design.

The hemmed cones are important if you expect to reuse the drogue. The un-hemmed ones will have frayed edges after only one good storm. I bought mine from OceanBrake and they are beautifully made, and were not expensive.

The other big improvement to the design is using UHMWPE cordage instead of nylon. You don't need any stretch in any part of the cordage, because the small diameter cones spread out over the whole length of the device don't produce any shock loads ("horizontal bungee jumping"). Don Jordan himself understood that before his passing and wrote about it. UHMWPE is much lighter, especially when wet, and is much more resistant to chafe. Lighter is really important; it affects storage, deployment, and retrieval. It's easier to make the system stronger with UHMWPE, and it's vastly easier to splice.

 

[Dockhead]

Not only is a JSD stronger than the builders bag, it also has a huge amount of redundancy built in. It is designed so that a length of cones, if they break out a wave, the remaining sets of cones continue to work. You can do the arithmetic on the areas of the cones and compare to the builder’s area, it is significantly more on the JSD. JSD calming affect and damping on wave acceleration has also been claimed to be amazing in the many reports of them being used.

Sailors have used tyres, builders bags, looped warps, warps, anchors, chain, sail bags, buckets to slow a boat down, and if it works, great. The JSD is a solution designed for a vessel’s displacement and works well, is proven.

The other advantage of using multiple small cones is that the drag is spread out along the whole length of the drogue, stabilising the entire length of the device, which can't go slack and can't pop out of a wave face. You're gripping the ocean over 100 meters or whatever, and not just at a single point.

What's really dangerous in a survival storm is broaching, which can get you rolled and dismasted. Being held by a series drogue by the stern the boat is naturally stable and won't yaw.

I don't like parachute sea anchors exactly because every wave is doing its best to push the bow over. If there's any slack in the line, it can, and that can result in disaster.

The other thing I don't like about para anchors is that you can't make any sternway, or you can break your rudder. So parachute sea anchors have to be sized to completely stop the boat. That hugely increases the loads. With a series drogue, you are always making way downwind, and the system allows you to surge forward a bit, absorbing the blow. It's a vastly softer ride; like "horizontal bungee jumping" indeed.