Storm Isha

Snowgoose-1

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The Met Office give warnings when there is potential for damage from windstrength and precipitation. Nothing to do with woke. It's called 'forewarning' and enables people to make decisions in advance. Seems quite sensible to me and looking across uk news reports, damage has occurred in widespread areas.

As boaty people, who on here would go to sea without a weather forecast???
Yes. The forecasts are brilliant now.
It's just the distortion of facts by organisations and folks that either profit by it financially or wish to impose
their own political ideals on others.

The circle is now complete. Even the weather is somebody's fault.
 

johnalison

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So, what should the Met Office do when exceptionally severe weather is expected? Perhaps some of you wiseacres could tell us. In the event, it was pretty bad, Storm Isha: Two dead and thousands still without power, even allowing for media hype. The warnings were fully justified. They were also issued well ahead, How many more would have died had there been no warnings? With our infrastructure as it is, much of the damage was inevitable. But, it did give ample time for authorities etc to take action such as ensuring that emergency staff were prepared and ready for the inevitable call-outs. With Jocelyn on ite way, we are only one storm short of the maximum annual total. There are 7 more months to go. I come back to my assertion that we are seeing, not necessarily more severe storms in the past but more of them.

Absolutely. There are more and, I think, more violent storms than 40/50 years ago, but that's with no data to support it apart from my old fart's impression - (and the Met Office, but they clearly don't count in some eyes). However, they're so much better forecast, so at least people can plan to keep out of the way. The real problem, ISTM is that we can expect the trend to continue, and we can also expect seal levels to rise. Dealing with that is going to take a lot of hard work and money with no immediately visible benefit, so governments, local and national with no view beyond the next election just aren't going to do more than pay lip service until it all hits the fan, when it'll cost far more and be far harder because they'll be dealing with a lot of people who've been washed out of their homes.
The expert on Radio 4 was less clear about it. Her statement was that, although there is now good evidence for increased rainfall, the evidence for an increase in severe weather is not yet established over a long enough period for it to be regarded as proven. I’m happy to go along with the majority view, that there seems to be more stormy weather, while accepting that the reason for it may not yet be fully established, even though most of us already know the most likely answer.
 

AntarcticPilot

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The expert on Radio 4 was less clear about it. Her statement was that, although there is now good evidence for increased rainfall, the evidence for an increase in severe weather is not yet established over a long enough period for it to be regarded as proven. I’m happy to go along with the majority view, that there seems to be more stormy weather, while accepting that the reason for it may not yet be fully established, even though most of us already know the most likely answer.
Yes, that's a real problem. During most of the 1990s, those of us who worked on the Antarctic Peninsula were all quite convinced that the Peninsula was warming. But because the records didn't rise to where we could say that it was statistically significant, we couldn't assert it. The level of significance passed the relevant statistical tests in the late 90s/early 2000s (I forget exactly); but there was plenty of evidence of change before then, e.g.
  • Cooper, A.P.R., Historical observations of Prince Gustav Ice Shelf: Polar Record, 33, 285-294, 1997.
  • Fox, A.J., and A.P.R. Cooper, Climate change indicators from archival aerial photography of the Antarctic Peninsula region: Annals of Glaciology, 27, 636-642, 1998
 

franksingleton

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The expert on Radio 4 was less clear about it. Her statement was that, although there is now good evidence for increased rainfall, the evidence for an increase in severe weather is not yet established over a long enough period for it to be regarded as proven. I’m happy to go along with the majority view, that there seems to be more stormy weather, while accepting that the reason for it may not yet be fully established, even though most of us already know the most likely answer.
Perhaps it depends on which expert you heard. There are many good scientist who get interviewed on the BBC and elsewhere. In the same way that I would regard BAS as the top experts for events in the Antarctic, the Met Office and ECMWF are in the forefront on weather and climate change. They can now do attribution studies, see Attributing extreme weather to climate change. I cannot say just how they do these but it clearly involve running models father than any statistical technique. I heard one interviewee mention this in the context of Isha.
I assume that a study will be done for Isha.

In a handwaving way, the best that I can do these days, the increase in sea temperatures must provide more energy for storm development. But, of course the atmosphere is far too complex for such a statement to be regarded as the answer.
 

sfellows

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I'm not sure you need detailed knowledge to understand if extreme weather is caused by global warming. It's simple Newtonian physics. More warming = more energy. Weather is stored and then released energy. More energy = more weather.
 

johnalison

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I'm not sure you need detailed knowledge to understand if extreme weather is caused by global warming. It's simple Newtonian physics. More warming = more energy. Weather is stored and then released energy. More energy = more weather.
What is less clear is where that energy will go, and who gets all the extra weather. It is almost certainly true that some features of our weather have changed, and also that this is part of the climate change scenario. What can’t be proved is that individual events have any connection at all, and what saddens me is that the repetitions of such assertions by unthinking journalists may actually make the public less receptive to the important matter of climate change when they are shown to be wrong or inaccurate.
 

franksingleton

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I'm not sure you need detailed knowledge to understand if extreme weather is caused by global warming. It's simple Newtonian physics. More warming = more energy. Weather is stored and then released energy. More energy = more weather.
The problem with that argument is that we have always had severe storms or extreme weather. That is what the deniers of MMGW say with some justification. The Daniel Defoe storm of 1704 is an example. What we are seeing is that there are more storms that are severe, more Cat 4/5 hurricanes as well as a suggestion that we might need a Cat 6.
You are right about more heat giving more energy but that energy can manifest itself in various ways.
 

AntarcticPilot

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The problem with that argument is that we have always had severe storms or extreme weather. That is what the deniers of MMGW say with some justification. The Daniel Defoe storm of 1704 is an example. What we are seeing is that there are more storms that are severe, more Cat 4/5 hurricanes as well as a suggestion that we might need a Cat 6.
You are right about more heat giving more energy but that energy can manifest itself in various ways.
As Frank says, it's about the increasing frequency of severe storms, and you can't link an individual storm or even an individual bad winter or hot summer to MMGW. The statistics for such things are tricky; a trend that looks good to casual inspection can be very difficult to establish as being statistically significant without a long series of observations because of the intrinsic variability in the weather. We passed the point where such series were available around 2000 in the Antarctic, but it needed 50 years of observations, despite the trend being obvious to most of us who worked on the continent! The Antarctic Peninsula happens also to be one of the places where the warming trend is amplified by its climatology. ; it is harder to establish in more temperate places where most observations are available. But the trend is now very firmly established; we passed the point where the statistics could be challenged in around 2000.
 

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