Steering Cable And Conduit Questions

[demonboy]

Hi all,

I have a steering cable that runs through conduits. The steering has got quite tight (it's not the rudder, we checked) and suspect that dirt and salt has got into the conduit. We have read that replacing the conduit is as important as replacing the cable itself but we're based in India and can't get new conduit. Instead we'll have to make do with cleaning it. The alternative is to take the conduit away altogether and just run the cable unprotected.

Any views on this? Should I think about cleaning the conduit and reusing it? I've pulled some of the cable out and it's in pretty good nick. Any dangers in not using conduit?

Appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I assume that the conduit is the Morse / Teleflex outer part. If it is you will find it very hard to clean out the "conduit". I am sure that they are lubricated when assembled and cleaning out the conduit would of course remove any lubricant that is impregnated on the inside of the conduit. The conduit may have a coating or a liner which breaks down and contributes to the stiffness. It may not be caused by external sources.

I think you are taking a risk with your steering that should not be taken. I am aware of a Rival 41 that was wrecked because of Morse cable failure, dont know the details of that failure.

 

[demonboy]

I assume that the conduit is the Morse / Teleflex outer part. I think you are taking a risk with your steering that should not be taken. I am aware of a Rival 41 that was wrecked because of Morse cable failure, dont know the details of that failure.

It is a cable within a cable. The outer cable is hollow of course and sheathed in plastic.

When you say I am taking a risk, how do you mean? By using the old one or not using one at all? Any risk in just running a new cable through without the outer conduit?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The outer conduit is constructed to allow the inner cable (or solid rod) to move back and forwards without kinking. The close fit between the two gives the necessary stiffness for the inner cable or rod to work between the end point mounting brackets.

If you dont fit the conduit then it will not work. The conduit is clamped to the end point mounting brackets. The inner cable moves between these fixed points, one on the wheel end, one on the steering yoke end.

The above assumes that we are talking about the same system. Does your cable run over pulley wheels or is it just a cable?

If you are thinking of using the end clamps but stripping off the conduit and it is a pull pull system i.e. two cables, then no, that will not work either, it could work but would be subject to strain that the inner cable was not designed for. The same applies if you have the cables in small pipes between the wheel and rudder. You need the outer cable conduit.

If you clean out the cable conduit, you may be able to reuse it and the wire. There is a specification for the fit between the conduit and wire and end point sleeves (the barrels that the conduit is attached to that the wire passes through as it exits the cable). This gives the correct stiffness. So make sure you match the cable exactly. This would only be a temporary measure.

The closeness is what causes the stiffness, it does not take much crud to jam up. A good clean out and reassembly may extend the life. I had a pile of these build up over the years. They were changed out when they got stiff (charter fleet). I never took one apart to clean.

I would add that assuming the cable has been on the boat for a long time, by the time the stiffness happens, it is the end of its useful life. The metal is getting to the point where it may snap under large loads.

 

[demonboy]

I would add that assuming the cable has been on the boat for a long time, by the time the stiffness happens, it is the end of its useful life. The metal is getting to the point where it may snap under large loads.

Are you referring to the actual cable or the conduit? I agree that this cable is at the end of its life and therefore needs replacing but there is little point in me putting in a new cable in an existing conduit. I think I'm going to have the bite the bullet and DHL a new conduit from the UK.

Thanks for your replies, I've learned a bit more today.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi all,

I have a steering cable that runs through conduits. The steering has got quite tight (it's not the rudder, we checked) and suspect that dirt and salt has got into the conduit. We have read that replacing the conduit is as important as replacing the cable itself but we're based in India and can't get new conduit. Instead we'll have to make do with cleaning it. The alternative is to take the conduit away altogether and just run the cable unprotected.

Any views on this? Should I think about cleaning the conduit and reusing it? I've pulled some of the cable out and it's in pretty good nick. Any dangers in not using conduit?

Appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

I seem to remember that your boat is a centre cockpit. In which case it is almost impossible to devise a system of open wires on pulleys as there are too many corners. That is why the system of an outer tube and inner wire is used (called a pull pull system) was installed. Without the "tube" the system simply cannot work. On my boat I have a couple of grease injectors through which I pump white/colourless teflon grease to lubricate it. In the end though the lining of the "tube" wears away, especially if it has not been kept well lubricated. There is then no alternative but to replace the tube and at the same time the internal steel cable. I very much doubt that the problem is dirt though, it is more likely that the inner PTFE coating has worn through.

The system fitted to many boats is the Edson system - here is a link to their web site which will help you determine what it is.
http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=221

A possible solution might be to end for end the tubes so that the cable perhaps bares on a different (perhaps unworn) part of the tube.

You cannot risk a bodge - statement of the obvious...... more certain to have unhappy consequences than meeting a pirate....

Good luck

 

[demonboy]

Sorry, just one more thing: an ex-pat here who built his own boat thinks he may be able to get the Morse cable made up locally. However I'm interested to know what that inner bit of the Morse is. Mine is plastic, so how is the actual cable lubricated?

EDIT: Thanks for the post, Chris. I thought it might be some kind of plastic coating that wears away with time.

Also I eventually got round to RTFM (Calder) to work out my pull-pull system and understand that I can't run bare cables. However I don't think I have grease points in my Morse to top up. Instead, then, should I grease the inner cable as I push it through the Morse? I have some white Teflon grease used for cleaning my winches.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Hi all,

I have a steering cable that runs through conduits. The steering has got quite tight (it's not the rudder, we checked) and suspect that dirt and salt has got into the conduit. We have read that replacing the conduit is as important as replacing the cable itself but we're based in India and can't get new conduit. Instead we'll have to make do with cleaning it. The alternative is to take the conduit away altogether and just run the cable unprotected.

Any views on this? Should I think about cleaning the conduit and reusing it? I've pulled some of the cable out and it's in pretty good nick. Any dangers in not using conduit?

Appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

It was presumably set up with the gear you describe - stay with it, I strongly recommend.
If you've loosened the quadrant and are sure the stock and rudder run free, then look at the link chain that connects with the spindle on which the wheel sits, and ensure it wortks well.

It is possible over time for the cable to strand within its sheath; this will dig into the inner surface of the cable carrier / sheath. As a final check, remove the total cable and sheath and inspect.

As explained above in an excellent post, if the cable achieves its purchase through a sheath, you cannot re-rig by discarding the sheath - mechanically it's a no-go.

PWG

 

[sailor211]

My whitlock (titan?) steering has conduit and wires.

The conduit is in fact armoured electrical conduit with a low friction plastic inside. hole in the fitings is 7 mm approx of of conduit about 18 mm and between the cores there is 3mm solid that forms the armour. This is self lubricated and the equlivant modern conduit type is PTFE lined..

Conduit is difficylt to find and the only source i can find is from USA and a reel 50Mis expensive. I have realigned, shorteded, mine and hence moved the wear spots, improved the route for easy runs, and it is much improved.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Sorry, just one more thing: an ex-pat here who built his own boat thinks he may be able to get the Morse cable made up locally. However I'm interested to know what that inner bit of the Morse is. Mine is plastic, so how is the actual cable lubricated?

EDIT: Thanks for the post, Chris. I thought it might be some kind of plastic coating that wears away with time.

Also I eventually got round to RTFM (Calder) to work out my pull-pull system and understand that I can't run bare cables. However I don't think I have grease points in my Morse to top up. Instead, then, should I grease the inner cable as I push it through the Morse? I have some white Teflon grease used for cleaning my winches.

Is yours actually a Morse system? Morse (I think) is associated with Push Pull systems - ie a single cable.

 

[Bilgediver]

It is a cable within a cable. The outer cable is hollow of course and sheathed in plastic.

When you say I am taking a risk, how do you mean? By using the old one or not using one at all? Any risk in just running a new cable through without the outer conduit?

I was under the impression some of these are a cable within a hollow cable. The problem sometimes comes when some of the smaller filler wires used in the construction wear and break and then cause jammimg. Otherwise it may just be a lubrication issue. I have a small boat where the cable is not in a teleflex so travels over a path of pulleys and one of these is required at every turning point for each cable You would need a different cable if goig this route as the inner teleflex is not so flexible as multistrand stainless which is what you will need.

Seeing where you are I would suspect the least you can do is try and remove the teleflex assembly and inspect it and end for end the sheath if possible so when it goes back cleaned and relubricated all the bend postions are in different places and so the inner might be more free. You can always order a new one from West marine or A N other to meet you somewhere. DOn t forget you are in a country where the natives are good at fixing things

 

[demonboy]

Er, I was using the term Morse because that's how it was explained to me, but maybe it isn't. It's a pull-pull system and the cable is as sailor 211 explains: the outer cable is, in order of materials from outside in, plastic sheath, cable, plastic tube. If I can source this here then I guess the keyword here is 'PTFE'.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Er, I was using the term Morse because that's how it was explained to me, but maybe it isn't. It's a pull-pull system and the cable is as sailor 211 explains: the outer cable is, in order of materials from outside in, plastic sheath, cable, plastic tube. If I can source this here then I guess the keyword here is 'PTFE'.

If your steering system is an edson one, then its most likely the gear below deck is also Edson. See if you can match the bits to the link I sent you. Buying from the states may be better than the UK.......

 

[Chris_Robb]

Jamie, - looked at some pictures of Oyster 435 for sale here and they look as if they are fitted standard with Edson Steering.

 

[Bilgediver]

Er, I was using the term Morse because that's how it was explained to me, but maybe it isn't. It's a pull-pull system and the cable is as sailor 211 explains: the outer cable is, in order of materials from outside in, plastic sheath, cable, plastic tube. If I can source this here then I guess the keyword here is 'PTFE'.

Are the end fittings white nylon???? If so please advise the name stamped on the mouldings...

Also could be teleflex like this.

http://www.westmarine.com/1/3/boat-steering-cable


Also here showing different ranges

http://www.marinesteering.net/steeringcables.htm

 

[demonboy]

Are the end fittings white nylon?

No, they're metal and there is no stamping anywhere (unless on the pulley mountings, which I haven't inspected yet). Thanks for the links.

Seeing where you are I would suspect the least you can do is try and remove the teleflex assembly and inspect it and end for end the sheath if possible so when it goes back cleaned and relubricated all the bend postions are in different places and so the inner might be more free. You can always order a new one from West marine or A N other to meet you somewhere. Don t forget you are in a country where the natives are good at fixing things

This is Option Number 2 should ordering a new one become problematic. I have a new inner cable already so end for ending the outer is my next best option.

Jamie, - looked at some pictures of Oyster 435 for sale here and they look as if they are fitted standard with Edson Steering.

Thanks, Chris. I've been in contact with Oyster but the person I was after was off yesterday so hopefully they'll come back to me on Monday with some more information. I've not looked for it yet but there is no stamp or marking on the cable to tell me who this is made by. Edson seems like a reasonable suggestion. A search on Google UK returns this thread as the first search result

 

[auditdata]

Are you sure!

Are you absolutely sure it is the cable and not the bearings in the steering pedestal. I have just had the same thing on an oyster 406 1987 vintage. It turned out to be the nylon bearings in the constellation pedestal. see photos at http://picasaweb.google.com/clive.sparkes/Rudder#
I am also replacing the cables as a precaution but once the chain was freed from the helm shaft it was clear that the shaft would not move but the cables were free, conduit fine and rudder free.
Worth a thought if you haven't excluded the helm shaft bearings.

 

[scottie]

To help identify what you some clues
Teleflex bought Morse bu is not identical
Morse conduits were often red and red jacket was a morse trade mark Morse inner cables were built with a flap wrap technique
Teleflex use an spiral overwrap and is usually described at windsreen wiper cable 5/16"

Morse supplied conduit and wire for cobra steering marketed as I recall lewmar

 

[demonboy]

Are you absolutely sure it is the cable and not the bearings in the steering pedestal. I am also replacing the cables as a precaution but once the chain was freed from the helm shaft it was clear that the shaft would not move but the cables were free, conduit fine and rudder free.

Since my last post I took the whole shebang apart. I disengaged the chain from the steering and turned the wheel, only to find that there was no less resistance. It seems, then, that I have the same issue as you. Also I pulled the inner cable out of its conduit and there was little resistance, no apparent wear and the inner cable was in good condition.

Because I have taken everything apart I too am going to replace everything anyway, so this post wasn't a waste of time as I've learned quite a bit about how it all works.

Thanks all.

 

[Bilgediver]

Since my last post I took the whole shebang apart. I disengaged the chain from the steering and turned the wheel, only to find that there was no less resistance. It seems, then, that I have the same issue as you. Also I pulled the inner cable out of its conduit and there was little resistance, no apparent wear and the inner cable was in good condition.

Because I have taken everything apart I too am going to replace everything anyway, so this post wasn't a waste of time as I've learned quite a bit about how it all works.

Thanks all.

The exchange of info is never a waste of time as others are no doubt reading the thread and digesting the contents just in case their turn is next

We had a similar problem on a Westerly Vulcan which in fact was shaft drive. It was a matter of non lubricated bearings etc on the wheel shaft. Our local engineer replaced the wheel shaft bearings using synthetic bushes instead of ball races and afterwards it was free and as smooth as silk. It might be worth considering this option if you can find some bits of material in the local market.