Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

So the fact that I can sharpen a steel blade with a soft stone means that the stone is tougher than the steel?

A rope will cut through steel given time and a lot of effort and a lot of rope. Does that make rope tougher than steel?

I can engrave a steel sheet with a diamond, but if I hit the diamond with a hammer it might shatter. Which is the toughest?

Can you see how ludicrous your argument is?

Steel pickaxe against GRP sheet isn't a comparable test with GRP pickaxe against steel sheet. No one in their right mind would suggest otherwise.

Can you show me ANYWHERE in this thread (or any other thread on YBW) where anyone suggests GRP is as tough as steel. Yet you say, "as is often suggested..." Show me one example out of your 'often'.

Plenty of people have poured scorn on your tails of how vulnerable GRP boats are. Several people have pointed out how tough GRP boats are. But that's inconvenient in your frame of reference and is therefore ignored.

Search
MAIB_Vespucci_and_Wahkuna.pdf MAIB Report - collision of Vespucci and Wahkuna
Tried to post the picture, but couldn't get it to work. Can someone else get it to work?

This is a glancing blow, which took the entire bow off, and sunk her quickly, far less of an impact than the T boning of the Gringo. Given the bow was sliced off, it confirms my statements that the impact the Gringo took , without leaking a drop, would have cut this boat in half ,along with confirming what I posted about the Sleavin family's boat. It also confirms the difference I stated, between small, light, empty boats and fully loaded cruisers.
Yes ,plastic boats work out well, for many cruisers , relying on merely luck, to not have this happen to them.Yes, the odds are low, but good seamanship is leaving as little as possible to luck.

 

[john_morris_uk]

MAIB_Vespucci_and_Wahkuna.pdf MAIB Report - collision of Vespucci and Wahkuna

Sorry, but what has that got to do with the points I made?

One incident where a GRP boat suffered and you draw conclusions from it that only make sense to you.

Answer the actual points I made...? Or admit that your suggestion to compare GRP pickaxes and Steel Pickaxes vs their counterparts was the silly nonsense that it is.

 

[rotrax]

What I say and what you see are two completely different things, sometimes opposites. Its kinda like in a marriage!
The number of people who believed the world is flat and the universe revolves around it, was huge ,almost all of them.Surely they couldn't have all been wrong ,you say?

But Brent-you REALLY have shot yourself in the foot this time.

Many, many times I have asked you for a direct answer and you have replied without addressing the core of the question. In fact, you have usually answered a question that was not asked!

You obviously know a great deal about building and maintaining steel boats. You have your own eco life philosophy which is admirable. Like me, you are a recycler and make stuff out of discarded bits.

But, unlike me and many other posters you seem unable to appreciate that others want different things from life than you aspire to, including GRP boats.

Why is that a problem for you? Why to you need to deride and scorn their choices?

Forget the fact that my steel Hartley-with which I am very pleased now its getting to be well sorted-was not built incorporating your excellent steel boat maintenance ideas. I have just spent 4 weeks sorting the corrosion. You must remember I am not able to do 8 hour days any more and that I must get permission to even start up an angle grinder in the yard. Any area cut or ground must be tented to avoid contaminating nearby boats. Hot work requires a plan and risk assessment to be agreed and permission granted before work can start.

This is the real world Brent, one that I and most others live in.

My Hartley is now looking really good, sailing well and many compliments from others at the dock and the Evans Bay club have come our way about how good she looks and goes.

But, should I wish to sell her, I would be lucky to achieve $15,000 NZ Dollars. About £7,000 Stirling.

If she were timber-many more of my Hartley model were timber-$20,000 NZ Dollars, if she were GRP $30,000 NZ Dollars.

That is the marketplace in NZ Brent, for old steel boats.

The marketplace represents the perception boaters have regarding steel boats here. Walking round the moored boats in Wellington it is easy to spot why.

Lets agree to disagree, and stop this pointless back and forwards stuff-its going nowhere fast. How about :-

Steel, timber, aluminium and GRP boats are all capable of being long term liveaboard cruising boats.

But steel is the best choice for out of the way places where self reliance is paramount.

Will you agree that that represents the true situation?

 

[Brent Swain]

Sorry, but what has that got to do with the points I made?

One incident where a GRP boat suffered and you draw conclusions from it that only make sense to you.

Answer the actual points I made...? Or admit that your suggestion to compare GRP pickaxes and Steel Pickaxes vs their counterparts was the silly nonsense that it is.

No, they are a good valid comparison of the relative toughness of the two materials, even if they disprove your theories.

 

[Brent Swain]

But Brent-you REALLY have shot yourself in the foot this time.

Many, many times I have asked you for a direct answer and you have replied without addressing the core of the question. In fact, you have usually answered a question that was not asked!

You obviously know a great deal about building and maintaining steel boats. You have your own eco life philosophy which is admirable. Like me, you are a recycler and make stuff out of discarded bits.

But, unlike me and many other posters you seem unable to appreciate that others want different things from life than you aspire to, including GRP boats.

Why is that a problem for you? Why to you need to deride and scorn their choices?

Forget the fact that my steel Hartley-with which I am very pleased now its getting to be well sorted-was not built incorporating your excellent steel boat maintenance ideas. I have just spent 4 weeks sorting the corrosion. You must remember I am not able to do 8 hour days any more and that I must get permission to even start up an angle grinder in the yard. Any area cut or ground must be tented to avoid contaminating nearby boats. Hot work requires a plan and risk assessment to be agreed and permission granted before work can start.

This is the real world Brent, one that I and most others live in.

My Hartley is now looking really good, sailing well and many compliments from others at the dock and the Evans Bay club have come our way about how good she looks and goes.

But, should I wish to sell her, I would be lucky to achieve $15,000 NZ Dollars. About £7,000 Stirling.

If she were timber-many more of my Hartley model were timber-$20,000 NZ Dollars, if she were GRP $30,000 NZ Dollars.

That is the marketplace in NZ Brent, for old steel boats.

The marketplace represents the perception boaters have regarding steel boats here. Walking round the moored boats in Wellington it is easy to spot why.

Lets agree to disagree, and stop this pointless back and forwards stuff-its going nowhere fast. How about :-

Steel, timber, aluminium and GRP boats are all capable of being long term liveaboard cruising boats.

But steel is the best choice for out of the way places where self reliance is paramount.

Will you agree that that represents the true situation?

Yes, you are absolutely right. When it comes to hull materials, most buyers are really dense. They buy whatever has the most promotion, regardless of benefits. That is why they get so much promotion .Or they wouldn't bother with all that promotion .
Location is also important. Around here no one wants a wooden boat,but my steel 36 footers sell for around $44k if done well, usually fairly quickly.
Steel is rare,and undervalued in southern California, and you get little for a steel boat. It is plastic land with plastic thinking people. The further north you get the more they value steel, and the higher the price you get for a well done steel boat. No one here gives a rats ass about what Kiwis like.I was never impressed by what Kiwis value in a boat (varnished dead vegetation ,picture windows, shiny hulls made out of dead vegetation, etc.) Yes they are capable of long distance cruising, but Heyerdahl crossed the east Pacific in a raft, and that doesn't make it he best choice for such a voyage.Slocum gave similar warnings about the Spray, saying because he circumnavigated in her, doesn't make her the best boat for such a voyage.

Steel, timber, aluminium and GRP boats are all capable of being long term liveaboard cruising boats.

But steel is the best choice for out of the way places where self reliance is paramount.

Will you agree that that represents the true situation?

Yes this is true .I agree on that.

 

[Brent Swain]

I once met a Kiwi , in Nelson NZ, who had owned many wooden boats over his long lifetime. He had built a steel Matangi Motorsailer in Australia. When he found out how much cheaper sandblasting was in New Zealand, he ballasted her, rigged her and launched her ,then he sailed her across the Tasman, bare, rusty steel, then blasted and painted her in New Zealand.
After a lifetime of owning and maintaining wooden boats, he said he was amazed at how little maintenance his steel boat required, a fraction of that required for wooden boats.
Plastic boat owners here are always fighting deck leaks, one said he has to rebed everything every 3 years, far more work than the maintenance on my entire steel boat. Welded down gear doesn't leak. The reglassing of the entire hull-deck joint, which several required, is far more maintenance than I have done in years.
On my first boat, the varnished cabin sides ,toe rails, hatches, hand rails cockpit coamings, etc required exponentially more work than on the steel boats I have owned ,while contributing nothing to the function or seaworthiness of the boat.Yet people passively continue to sand and vanish like slaves, while naively saying steel boats are too high maintenance!

 

[Brent Swain]

So the fact that I can sharpen a steel blade with a soft stone means that the stone is tougher than the steel?

A rope will cut through steel given time and a lot of effort and a lot of rope. Does that make rope tougher than steel?

I can engrave a steel sheet with a diamond, but if I hit the diamond with a hammer it might shatter. Which is the toughest?

Can you see how ludicrous your argument is?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mine is relevant, yours is ludicrous.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Steel pickaxe against GRP sheet isn't a comparable test with GRP pickaxe against steel sheet. No one in their right mind would suggest otherwise.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
When one material collides with another, the one which breaks is the weakest .
Toughness is malability without breaking.You can tie a knot in a mild steel wire, without breaking , Try that with fibreglass. That malability is what lets steel bend and stretch, without holing.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Can you show me ANYWHERE in this thread (or any other thread on YBW) where anyone suggests GRP is as tough as steel. Yet you say, "as is often suggested..." Show me one example out of your 'often'.

Plenty of people have poured scorn on your tails of how vulnerable GRP boats are. Several people have pointed out how tough GRP boats are. But that's inconvenient in your frame of reference and is therefore ignored.

Search
MAIB_Vespucci_and_Wahkuna.pdf MAIB Report - collision of Vespucci and Wahkuna
Here is your answer .Compare that to the Gringo incident, and the Sleavin family tragedy.
No comparison.

 

[Brent Swain]

Obviously fake news. (I anticipate a certain persons reply)

Either that or, “Tell the Sleavins yada yada yada....”

I’ve already told him about a steel boat I’ve sailed across oceans on that’s only a few years old but it’s been scrapped as uneconomical to repair. “Well you must have maintained it wrong is the only answer.”

I wasn’t responsible for it and I didn’t do the maintenance so I can’t comment on something so self evidently true.

And you refuse to post any pictures of the problem areas, so we can discuss it,, what was done wrong, and how to resolve them ? Makes your story lack credibility.

 

[Brent Swain]

I don't believe you. Lying on a beach, maybe. But not 16 days of "pounding in Baja surf".

I know of a lightweight GRP race boat that was pulled off after a week of pounding in the Brazilian (yes, Atlantic) surf. With no damage.

I don't believe you know more about the incident than the 3 people who were there, who you imply are all liars, without your ever having met them.

 

[Brent Swain]

Actually, another interesting test would be to put a few inches of seawater in the bilge of a steel and a GRP boat. Then drop a few items of dissimilar metals in the bilge. Maybe some copper, some steel, some stainless, some aluminium bits. Maybe even run a bit of current through the seawater. See which hull fares better.

Copper will eat a hole right thru aluminium, but steel has far less trouble. That is why I weld a zinc in the low pint of the bilge, which eliminates such problems as long as the zinc is intact. That is why I believe this is a must on aluminium boats, as well as a thick buildup of zinc primer and epoxy in the bilges of aluminium boats ( which some here favour greatly over steel, with the naive assumption that aluminium always corrodes less.)

 

[rotrax]

Well-I think Brents last seven posts sum it up completely.

We are pissing against the wind-he is a Zealot with a one track mind.

I'm done here.

 

[Achosenman]

He is not just a zealot. Considering his history, life choices and how he conducts himself, one with Asperger's.

 

[bbg]

I don't believe you know more about the incident than the 3 people who were there, who you imply are all liars, without your ever having met them.

Were you there? Was the boat being raised and pounded onto the shore with every wave for 16 days? I don't believe that. Lying there being hit by waves, maybe. But I have already posted a video of a lightweight GRP boat that suffered the same fate for a week and was forcibly pulled off with no damage whatsoever. No holes in the hull, no structural damage. No damage.

Kind of puts the lie to your position that GRP isn't tough enough.

 

[dom]

When it comes to hull materials, most buyers are really dense.

Location is also important. Around here no one wants a wooden boat,but my steel 36 footers sell for around $44k if done well, usually fairly quickly.

Steel is rare,and undervalued in southern California, and you get little for a steel boat. It is plastic land with plastic thinking people. The further north you get the more they value steel, and the higher the price you get for a well done steel boat.

It is indeed dense to imagine that nobody in CA would get the notion to pay the c.$5k transportation costs to ship their low priced steel boats up to Vancouver where they’d sell for a tidy profit, then take the cheap plastic ones back home to ‘plastic lad’ to cash-in even more!

You really should stop making things up.

 

[lpdsn]

That is why I weld a zinc in the low pint of the bilge, which eliminates such problems as long as the zinc is intact.

You weld Zinc! You're going to have to put a video of that on YouTube and post the link.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You weld Zinc! You're going to have to put a video of that on YouTube and post the link.

I am not defending Brent but he dad say he welds A zinc, meaning a zinc anode inside a steel hull.

It is common to weld a zinc anode to the outside of a steel boat hull. Some anodes are cast with steel tabs passing through so they can be welded of bolted on by drilling a hole in the tab. This is what I do to make it easy to change the anodes.

 

[lpdsn]

I am not defending Brent but he dad say he welds A zinc, meaning a zinc anode inside a steel hull.

It is common to weld a zinc anode to the outside of a steel boat hull. Some anodes are cast with steel tabs passing through so they can be welded of bolted on by drilling a hole in the tab. This is what I do to make it easy to change the anodes.

Call the video informative then. There's plenty of other experts willing to post on YouTube.

 

[Brent Swain]

I am not defending Brent but he dad say he welds A zinc, meaning a zinc anode inside a steel hull.

It is common to weld a zinc anode to the outside of a steel boat hull. Some anodes are cast with steel tabs passing through so they can be welded of bolted on by drilling a hole in the tab. This is what I do to make it easy to change the anodes.

Welded on stainless bolts, and a bit of stainless weld around the bolt hole, gives you a stainless on stainless connection , stopping corrosion on the strap from insulating the zinc from the hull. I still like to tack one corner of the strap, when the opportunity arrives, for a guaranteed connection.

 

[Brent Swain]

It is indeed dense to imagine that nobody in CA would get the notion to pay the c.$5k transportation costs to ship their low priced steel boats up to Vancouver where they’d sell for a tidy profit, then take the cheap plastic ones back home to ‘plastic lad’ to cash-in even more!

You really should stop making things up.

Friends bought one of my 36 footers in CA , and sailed her to BC ( then Australia, and back, now in Mexico.)
With plastic boats being ground up for concrete in Frisco, there is no shortage of plastic boats no one wants, in CA for cheap or free. Not far from there is Guaymas, with even cheaper plastic boats no one wants, around 300 of them.
Lots of plastic boat owners around here dreaming of switching to steel.

 

[Brent Swain]

Were you there? Was the boat being raised and pounded onto the shore with every wave for 16 days? I don't believe that. Lying there being hit by waves, maybe. But I have already posted a video of a lightweight GRP boat that suffered the same fate for a week and was forcibly pulled off with no damage whatsoever. No holes in the hull, no structural damage. No damage.

Kind of puts the lie to your position that GRP isn't tough enough.

That video showed nothing of the boat hauled out ,nor how much water she was taking in nor the state of the hull below the waterline, nor the rudder.It showed a brief encounter with the breakwater.

Was the boat being raised and pounded onto the shore with every wave for 16 days?

Every high tide for 16 days. A small dent, a bent bow roller and some broken rigging were the only damage. She sailed on towards San Diego that night .
Your words not mine; another straw man argument.