Steelboats

[GHA]

Perhaps not to be described as acolytes, but several steel boat owners do support many of his views, which, are bang on..

He certainly has a mass of experience and is worth having a listen to, well if you're on the tools and can sift through the dogma and get to the actual real world tips and tricks about running a steel boat long distance long term. And yes, shame it gets into "this material is right, all else is wrong". Doesn't really help.

 

[rotrax]

He certainly has a mass of experience and is worth having a listen to, well if you're on the tools and can sift through the dogma and get to the actual real world tips and tricks about running a steel boat long distance long term. And yes, shame it gets into "this material is right, all else is wrong". Doesn't really help.

I found a story on Sailing Anarchy which is quite disturbing and might, if true, be down to a mental health or personality disorder with our esteemed fellow poster.

Aspergers, Autism-who knows. We should perhaps bear it in mind as it would help no one to make a situation worse-if indeed, a situation exists.

Apparently, a boat and two crew were lost.

It seems like BS posted, while fellow sailors and friends were dealing with the awful news, that had they been in a steel boat they would have survived.

Not quite the moment, was it.............................

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

No-one here is a die hard GRP enthusiast. We just don't swallow the BS fed to us by die hard steel enthusiasts who try to justify the indentured servitude that characterises owning a steel boat when all they really do is sail to places GRP can handle easily and far better from a maintenance point of view.

When you next sail to the Antarctic or wherever for a cruise, I expect it will be in a steel yacht. Likewise, if I decide go to a cold miserably remote godforsaken place, I expect I would choose something other than GRP. But guess what, I don't plan on any such journey so I don't need the pain that comes with owning a steel boat simply to appease the likes of BS and his acolytes.

Ok so you're not the adventurous type; you have no need of a steel boat. That's fine.

 

[Achosenman]

Ok so you're not the adventurous type; you have no need of a steel boat. That's fine.

Not quite, the only place I think steel has an advantage worth having is at the polar regions when ice is abundant. Everything in between can be handled by GRP. This fact is demonstrated every day by thousands of long term cruisers sailing around the globe, posting rubbish on YT, drinking beer with bikini clad crew and not sinking.

 

[rotrax]

Ok so you're not the adventurous type; you have no need of a steel boat. That's fine.

Are you suggesting that GRP is not not suitable for small boat adventures?

The amount of GRP small boats that have safely navigated remote and out of the way places-including the artic and antartic-supports that it IS suitable.

No disagreement that steel might be a better choice for said adventures, but not the only one.

 

[GHA]

Not quite, the only place I think steel has an advantage worth having is at the polar regions when ice is abundant. .

Much more to it . Like the starzingers going Ali for thier second world girdling boat cost they wanted one that wouldn't leak after a couple of years crossing oceans(their words after extensive cruising in grp plus other reasons) . Another advantage is other boats will very likely bounce off you when you get tee boned, very likely holed with grp or at least some major work rather than some paint and nowhere within a thousand miles that can do the work. Head to uncharted places which you would be far from comfortable with in grp even in Europe . Lots people doing adventurous things in grp, but just cos you can't think of big uses for steel doesn't mean they don't exist. When researching a cruising boat originally there were apparently 4 collisions with whales that season crossing that atlantic. 2 sank, one limped into Bermuda for repairs, 4th was steel and the whale wasn't happy but the boat wasn't scratched. I've a little plug of 6mm steel hull from where a new sounder was put in which is very reassuring on dark nights mid ocean when you know there is so much rubbish out there to run into.
Each to thier own and nothing is black and white but get adventurous beyond the arc and steel does have advantages which start to become worth considering.

 

[Achosenman]

Much more to it . Like the starzingers going Ali for thier second world girdling boat cost they wanted one that wouldn't leak after a couple of years crossing oceans(their words after extensive cruising in grp plus other reasons) . Another advantage is other boats will very likely bounce off you when you get tee boned, very likely holed with grp or at least some major work rather than some paint and nowhere within a thousand miles that can do the work. Head to uncharted places which you would be far from comfortable with in grp even in Europe . Lots people doing adventurous things in grp, but just cos you can't think of big uses for steel doesn't mean they don't exist. When researching a cruising boat originally there were apparently 4 collisions with whales that season crossing that atlantic. 2 sank, one limped into Bermuda for repairs, 4th was steel and the whale wasn't happy but the boat wasn't scratched. I've a little plug of 6mm steel hull from where a new sounder was put in which is very reassuring on dark nights mid ocean when you know there is so much rubbish out there to run into.
Each to thier own and nothing is black and white but get adventurous beyond the arc and steel does have advantages which start to become worth considering.

TBH, I'm not impressed by 6mm of steel. I've seen it rip, punctured and corrode far to many times to want it. No-one has said there aren't uses for steel, so IMHO it's pointless tilting at that windmill.

You seem to be getting fixated by a minority of incidences where you think steel would have survived. If you need that as a comfort blanket, fine. I take a more pragmatic view. A bit like the discussions about life jackets and tethers, while single handing or in very cold water regions.

Anecdotal evidence citing cruisers reasons for changing are irrelevant and prove nothing. I'm far too long in the tooth to not know that the maintenance schedule and skill employed in that endeavour, has far too much influence on a vessels seaworthiness to take any individuals word as gospel. Being a "sailor" doesn't make you an expert, despite a seemingly common belief to the contrary. Bodged maintenance/fixes are always the boat manufactures fault, or a design error, never the tight wad who bodged it.

 

[GHA]

You seem to be getting fixated by a minority of incidences where you think steel would have survived. If you need that as a comfort blanket, fine. I take a more pragmatic view

I've bounced off things whch would almost certainly have needed structural work in grp, my boat was the only boat which didn't sink in the 87 storm on portland harbour. There is no real doubt, steel will take more punishment than grp and very likely get you to the other side of the ocean without sinking. It's not your little dig of a "comfort blanket". It's based on experience and data. Sounds like you've never actually been cruising long term off the radar? No one is coming to help, you need to get whatever probabilities you can on your side, steel will certainly help in that respect but is only a small part of the bigger picture. But having a dry boat and no rebedding to do is certainly nice


Each to their own :encouragement:

 

[dom]

Interesting to see how this discussion has gravitated towards puncture resistance, where in practice both GRP and steel perform pretty well.

The ultimate strength of a vessel is much much more than its outer skin which is basically there to keep the water out. Sadly, punctures occasionally happen, no matter what the the material, which is where watertight transverse bulkheads come in. For example IMOCA 60 rules specify 5x bulkheads creating 6x segregated compartments, with no more than 5m inbetween.

Then there is the question of liferafts if it all goes wrong.

106 yeras after the sinking of the 'T', wasting time discussing the merits of pre-1912 standards seems faintly ridiculous :ambivalence:

 

[rogerthebodger]

When Durban Marina broke up a year or so ago my boat was in the middle of it. I has 2 GRP catamarans next to me one sunk and the other did not but did sustain internal damage.

The hull of the GRP cats were constructed in different ways. The one that sunk was foam cored and the one that did not was solid GRP. So it not just the material its also the method of construction.

The sold GRP was a old design and construction and the one that sunk was a new design and construction.

The problem can be that the older GRP coats as been good that the method of construction has been reduced due to cost and weight that we are now getting to the point of concern. It the same with the way bolt on keels have started to "fall off"

I know from what I found when I finally pulled my boat out following the marina breakup that my boat would not have survived had it been GRP as one of the steel pontoons sliced a gouge 3 metres lonf down the side through the point and antifoul back o bare steel.

I did posted the pics of the gouge in the top sides but below the waterline it was worse.

I am not saying that GRP is no good, far from it, but I do prefer steel and like GHA I have gleaned some little gems fro Brent but don't like his single minded approach of running down any material other than steel.

Its not necessary the material that the issue in design you need to consider the way its constructed.

As with the titanic it was the way the bow of the was constructed (the hand riveting of the bow section) that caused the loss of the ship as the ice sheared off the rivets below the waterline. (My understanding)

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Are you suggesting that GRP is not not suitable for small boat adventures?

The amount of GRP small boats that have safely navigated remote and out of the way places-including the artic and antartic-supports that it IS suitable.

No disagreement that steel might be a better choice for said adventures, but not the only one.

Not suggesting anything other than the fact that the poster doesn't want to go to the antarctic and sees no benefit in having a steel boat and therefore grp will be fine for him. Everyone is entitled to a point of view, even Brent.

 

[Brent Swain]

That’s not a fair test.

How about steel pick axe on GRP followed by steel pick axe on steel?

GRP owners will be pleasantly surprised by just how difficult it is to puncture a GRP hull.

Steel boat owners of mature craft will be worried about where the pick lands.

The obvious way to compare the two is to whack one against the other, as in steel meets plastic, both ways.
The steel pickaxe will meet far more resistance from steel than plastic, at any rate.

 

[Brent Swain]

When Durban Marina broke up a year or so ago my boat was in the middle of it. I has 2 GRP catamarans next to me one sunk and the other did not but did sustain internal damage.

The hull of the GRP cats were constructed in different ways. The one that sunk was foam cored and the one that did not was solid GRP. So it not just the material its also the method of construction.

The sold GRP was a old design and construction and the one that sunk was a new design and construction.

The problem can be that the older GRP coats as been good that the method of construction has been reduced due to cost and weight that we are now getting to the point of concern. It the same with the way bolt on keels have started to "fall off"

I know from what I found when I finally pulled my boat out following the marina breakup that my boat would not have survived had it been GRP as one of the steel pontoons sliced a gouge 3 metres lonf down the side through the point and antifoul back o bare steel.

I did posted the pics of the gouge in the top sides but below the waterline it was worse.

I am not saying that GRP is no good, far from it, but I do prefer steel and like GHA I have gleaned some little gems fro Brent but don't like his single minded approach of running down any material other than steel.

Its not necessary the material that the issue in design you need to consider the way its constructed.

As with the titanic it was the way the bow of the was constructed (the hand riveting of the bow section) that caused the loss of the ship as the ice sheared off the rivets below the waterline. (My understanding)

Exactly!
The superior construction of older plastic boats is a contradiction to the belief that a higher price guarantees higher quality. Old and cheap beats new and expensive, as my friend comparing her older Crealock 37 to new ones found out.
As keels got deeper, and their attachment to the hull got narrower, they predictably began to fall off, as their leverage on keel bolts increased porportionately.
Plastic thru hulls can also be sliced off, by a brush with a rock or floating debris, just like Titanic rivets, especially those weakened by UV exposure ,over years. Welded in stainless pipe nipples have no such liability .

 

[john_morris_uk]

The obvious way to compare the two is to whack one against the other, as in steel meets plastic, both ways.
The steel pickaxe will meet far more resistance from steel than plastic, at any rate.

Just run that past me again... Are you suggesting a GRP pickaxe against a steel sheet vs a steel pickaxe against a GRP sheet as a ‘fair test’?

 

[bbg]

Just run that past me again... Are you suggesting a GRP pickaxe against a steel sheet vs a steel pickaxe against a GRP sheet as a ‘fair test’?

Actually, another interesting test would be to put a few inches of seawater in the bilge of a steel and a GRP boat. Then drop a few items of dissimilar metals in the bilge. Maybe some copper, some steel, some stainless, some aluminium bits. Maybe even run a bit of current through the seawater. See which hull fares better.

 

[jordanbasset]

Actually, another interesting test would be to put a few inches of seawater in the bilge of a steel and a GRP boat. Then drop a few items of dissimilar metals in the bilge. Maybe some copper, some steel, some stainless, some aluminium bits. Maybe even run a bit of current through the seawater. See which hull fares better.

 

[Resolution]

I had not opened this thread until today, when I read the last few pages. Gosh, what a jolly exciting discussion! Can anyone give me a precis of the first eighty five odd pages so that I can catch up?:eagerness:
Peter

 

[Brent Swain]

Just run that past me again... Are you suggesting a GRP pickaxe against a steel sheet vs a steel pickaxe against a GRP sheet as a ‘fair test’?

A good comparison of the relative strengths of thew two materials.If as is often suggested GRP is as tough as steel the plastic pick axe would fare well. This points out exactly how ludicrous that argument is.

 

[rotrax]

A good comparison of the relative strengths of thew two materials.If as is often suggested GRP is as tough as steel the plastic pick axe would fare well. This points out exactly how ludicrous that argument is.

So, Brent, please link me to where GRP has been clearly stated to be as strong as steel. It is something you spout off about a lot.

You say , quite clearly " If as is often suggested GRP is as tough as steel "

Well, where it this often suggested? I have never seen it so suggested.

I and other contributors have mostly maintained that it is strong enough to make strong, long lasting and corrosion free boats.

I have always been endowed with good upper body strength. I have had cause to swing sledgehammers, picks and large ball pein hammers and I know how to do it.

I could make a hole in your steel hull with a pickaxe Brent. A normal pickaxe Brent, just like the one you want to whack into a GRP boat. I would have to pick the spot, somewhere stiff enough for penetration, not distortion. Perhaps about 6 inches forward of the transom, 6 inches above the waterline. Yes, I think that would do it.

Anyway, getting back to your statement.

WHERE is it often suggested, directly and non ambiguously, that a GRP hull-or indeed GRP- is as strong as steel?

Because I cant recall it.................................

 

[lpdsn]

Can anyone give me a precis of the first eighty five odd pages so that I can catch up?
Peter

Steel boats are great. Oh no they're not. Oh yes they are. Oh no they're not. Oh yes they are.