Steelboats

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Brent Swain said:
When a ship T bones a steel boat,' and it doent even hole, that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that a steel ship hitting a steel boat of a given size and thickness, DOESN"T hole', period, especially when it has happened many times!
Calling reality ""Anecdote"is a way of denying reality, by those who dont want to face it.
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We used to have a guy on here who posted nice video's on his blog about sailing his small yachts around the UK. I got him to give a talk at our club.

He showed some footage of large ships doing ten knots down the Orwell with a public-that means posh fee paying in the UK-school in the background. He was a pupil at said school, and that is where he learned to sail. The ship had a huge bow wave-it was riding light, having just unloaded-and the large bulb at the front was pushing tons of water aside. He said, when he was a boy, the school had sailing regatta's against other schools and organisations. The school rarely lost as the local boys would put off tacking until right in the bow wave of these ships and use the outward push of water from the bow wave to turn far quicker than would be the case without that assistance. If a ship was leaving on the tide in daylight and the boys were on the water, plenty of time to practice. No boys were drowned, or boats damaged over many years of this happening.

So, what does that prove? We should all use the bow wave of a ship to assist tacking?

Of course not-but some of your steel boat owners appear to be getting too close to ships, if steel yachts have been T-Boned many times!

Here in the UK, with FAR more sailboats in use through a far longer season, it is a very rare and newsworthy occurence. In fact, any collision by any two vessels is quite unusual, and makes the news.

Seems to happen a lot round your way......................................
 
Brent Swain said:
When a ship T bones a steel boat,' and it doent even hole, that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that a steel ship hitting a steel boat of a given size and thickness, DOESN"T hole', period, especially when it has happened many times!
Calling reality ""Anecdote"is a way of denying reality, by those who dont want to face it.
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1. It proves nothing.

2. Happened many times? Where did that come from suddenly? May we have a list of these many boats t boned (steel and GRP) so that we can look at the statistics?
 
I have just looked up the November 2007 report of the Gringo's collision.

I read nothing in the report saying the ship was at full speed before the impact. I suspect it was at economical cruising speed, perhaps 2/3rds of full speed.

What did appear relevant was the issue of watchkeeping. The watchkeeper saw the ship and went below to rouse the crew. The ship made contact with the Gringo before any attempt at avoidance or communication was attempted. I am at a loss as to why this was. Sloppy sailing, poor watchkeeping, poor comunication on board Gringo-who knows, apart from those on board at the time.

The Gringo appears to have survived the impact very well-a sign that steel yachts are tough and durable.

But we all know that. It is such a pity it has negative points that detract from its universal use as a yacht building material.
 
Brent Swain said:
As they were run down by a cargo ship, what makes you certain that a steel yacht would have fared any better?
The Gringo was also T boned by a full speed cargo ship, and sufferd no leaks, as have other steel boats, as a result ,proving the Sleavins a would have had the same result, had their boat been steel.

The constant jeering of plastic promoters against steel misleads many to believe it is their only option, sometimes fatally .
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I know of a GRP lightweight race boat that was t-boned by an oil tanker mid-Atlantic. The boat was dismasted but not holed. No leaks.

He was picked up by another competitor and the boat was abandoned. It washed up in South America a few months later. Still not holed.

I guess that proves that GRP is just as tough as a rust bucket. At least, according to Brent's logic.
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john_morris_uk said:
1. It proves nothing.

2. Happened many times? Where did that come from suddenly? May we have a list of these many boats t boned (steel and GRP) so that we can look at the statistics?
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I agree. An average 2-story office block will be about 6m high. Jump off that and you'll expect to hit the ground at 10.8m/s or 21kts (I think).

Not dissimilar to a clean t-boning of a ship travelling at a similar speed.

So, there you are lying in your bunk, BANG: if there's no steel deformation, the boat's innards and occupants will be seriously damaged at best. One's best bet, as in a car, is that the hull is severely deformed but not ripped open. That last requirement is highly dubious with a ship's bulb just beneath the surface and a keel preventing lateral movement.

Perhaps one could mock up a ship's bow/bulb pointing vertically into the sky and then drop a yacht, any yacht, from 20ft above and see what happens.

Any volunteers to sit in the test boat? :ambivalence:

Better to never get close to such a predicament IMHO. Moreover, I'll bet those supposed t-bonings were in fact glancing blows of which many vessels of all types have survived.
 
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dom said:
I agree. An average 2-story office block will be about 6m high. Jump off that and you'll expect to hit the ground at 10.8m/s or 21kts (I think).

Not dissimilar to a clean t-boning of a ship travelling at a similar speed.

So, there you are lying in your bunk, BANG: if there's no steel deformation, the boat's innards and occupants will be seriously damaged at best. One's best bet, as in a car, is that the hull is severely deformed but not ripped open. That last requirement is highly dubious with a ship's bulb just beneath the surface and a keel preventing lateral movement.

Perhaps one could mock up a ship's bow/bulb pointing vertically into the sky and then drop a yacht, any yacht, from 20ft above and see what happens.

Any volunteers to sit in the test boat? :ambivalence:

Better to never get close to such a predicament IMHO. Moreover, I'll bet those supposed t-bonings were in fact glancing blows of which many vessels of all types have survived.
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In the case of the Gringo, if you google it and look at the photo it is clear it was struck about a third of the way back from the bow, and fairly straight. It did take a hard blow and was not holed.

I am with you on the other points, especially choosing to keep away from big boats!
 
I am sure that bullet proof vests use kevlar to stop bullets and I know some grp boats use kevlar reinforcement.
A few years ago whilst racing my grp boat I ran into the cockpit of another boat ... the only damage was to his steel pushpit ... there was literally no mark on my grp but his pushpit was very badly damaged.
 
rotrax said:
In the case of the Gringo, if you google it and look at the photo it is clear it was struck about a third of the way back from the bow, and fairly straight. It did take a hard blow and was not holed.

I am with you on the other points, especially choosing to keep away from big boats!
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Just googled it, wow, an impressive dent!

Not to say that fibreglass boats don't survive impressive knocks, they do, as of course you and others say elsewhere. Or that either type of boat might be sunk, or the crew seriously injured, if hit at the right speed in a place that doesn't allow spinning off. Perhaps an element of luck was involved and the the bow-wave, sea combination threw the boat off a little during impact?

All of this would have to be known and tested before an objective claim of 'proof' could even be considered.
 
john_morris_uk said:
1. It proves nothing.

2. Happened many times? Where did that come from suddenly? May we have a list of these many boats t boned (steel and GRP) so that we can look at the statistics?
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It proves a steel boat can survive a hull speed T-boning, without any leaks, period! Search Yacht Gringo. The ship never stopped, suggesting it never saw the gringo, and was continuing at full speed. Why would it be going any slower than full speed in open ocean?
Moitesier posted a picture of a sister ship to Joshua in a magazine, which had the same experience, with the same big dent , and no holes. I saw another on the internet, on another site, with the same results. Tried to post it here but, as often is the case, it wouldnt post.
Ány posting of the pros of steel gets attacked, ridiculed, piled on and jeered at, by plastic fans, on most sites.

Anecdote.
Reality! Irrefutable proof that refutes your favorite ""irrefutable"" theory.
Kinda like saying, ""Ït looks like it is raining today, but that;"'s just ""Änecdote"" and it must really be sunny, as the forecast said.
Like saying ""Ïf reality and experience contradicts theory ,forget reality, and what really happend, that''s just anecdote"" ,go with theory!""
Ya sure!
 
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dom said:
Just googled it, wow, an impressive dent!

Not to say that fibreglass boats don't survive impressive knocks, they do, as of course you and others say elsewhere. Or that either type of boat might be sunk, or the crew seriously injured, if hit at the right speed in a place that doesn't allow spinning off. Perhaps an element of luck was involved and the the bow-wave, sea combination threw the boat off a little during impact?

All of this would have to be known and tested before an objective claim of 'proof' could even be considered.
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Not much spining off, if hit that close to amidships, and bit so deeply . Thankfully ,bubous bows stop it from going under the ship.
 
dom said:
I agree. An average 2-story office block will be about 6m high. Jump off that and you'll expect to hit the ground at 10.8m/s or 21kts (I think).

Not dissimilar to a clean t-boning of a ship travelling at a similar speed.

So, there you are lying in your bunk, BANG: if there's no steel deformation, the boat's innards and occupants will be seriously damaged at best. One's best bet, as in a car, is that the hull is severely deformed but not ripped open. That last requirement is highly dubious with a ship's bulb just beneath the surface and a keel preventing lateral movement.

Perhaps one could mock up a ship's bow/bulb pointing vertically into the sky and then drop a yacht, any yacht, from 20ft above and see what happens.

Any volunteers to sit in the test boat? :ambivalence:

Better to never get close to such a predicament IMHO. Moreover, I'll bet those supposed t-bonings were in fact glancing blows of which many vessels of all types have survived.
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You would have a far better chance of surviving ,than with a plastic boat cut in half in mid ocean at night.I have invited plastic boat oners to a demolition derby, to conclusively compare my steel boat with their plastic ones ( preferably Lloyds aproves ones, or Lloyds approved wooden ones) No takers says it all.
 
bbg said:
Brent Swain said:
As they were run down by a cargo ship, what makes you certain that a steel yacht would have fared any better?


I know of a GRP lightweight race boat that was t-boned by an oil tanker mid-Atlantic. The boat was dismasted but not holed. No leaks.

He was picked up by another competitor and the boat was abandoned. It washed up in South America a few months later. Still not holed.

I guess that proves that GRP is just as tough as a rust bucket. At least, according to Brent's logic.
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I dont belive you.
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Brent Swain said:
I have invited plastic boat oners to a demolition derby, to conclusively compare my steel boat with their plastic ones ( preferably Lloyds aproves ones, or Lloyds approved wooden ones) No takers says it all.
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You have made many ridiculous claims on this thread but this has to be the funniest.
In any demolition derby all entrants, winners or losers, get damaged. To say that people won't because they will lose is irrelevant - it is because they don't want to damage their boat in any way.
Although you seem to wear the memories of crashing into things as a badge of honour most people try to avoid running into things,
But thanks for the laugh.
 
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Well, Brent-there you have it!

Proof, the empirical, non scientific way YOU aspire to, that a lightweight GRP and carbon fibre sailboat is as strong as one of your steel boats.

Both survived being hit by freighters, so they are equally as strong according to the gospel of St. Brent.

Subsequent to posting the above I looked at the youtube video of the GRP Dehler 31 being rammed into all sorts of hard stuff at all sorts of angles with little damage to hull integrity.

Please watch it Brent-you might just appreciate just how hard it is to hole a GRP hull. The language is German, but there is no need to understand what they are saying. After the heavy collisions they are saying-no holes-normal!
 
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DownWest said:
Oh, as more proof, a close friend was run down by a large cargo vessel in the Atlantic. Luckily it was a glancing blow and while he lost parts of his rig and suffered hull damage, it did not sink the boat. Due to the worsening weather (gale forcast), he elected to be taken off, by another cargo boat. The one that hit him was quite aware of what happened, but did not stop to help.
The boat was ferro/cement. It ended up in Madeira, towed in. One could use this to prove something, but I am not sure what.
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Did you see the video of the yacht notsinking off Cowes? Perhaps she sank after the clip ended...
 
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