Steelboats

[rotrax]

First Mate and I have been away up North with the family for a camping and fishing holiday. I am surprised that another 20 pages of this thread have happened while I have been away.

It is clear that Brent can build a steel boat for little money and go sailing without making much of a dent in the worlds ecosystems. The boats he designs and builds appear to be safe and strong. Well done Brent-I have said that several times-you have a solution for inexpensive sailing. But only for those who find that way of getting into sailing/long term cruising attractive.

Many-I would suggest most-other sailors who wish to embrace a cruising lifestyle don't choose Brent's way. What has consistently pissed me off is the constant disparaging remarks about GRP boats and their owners, and the support from sailing depots and trades that support them.

Plus the fact that, because of his self imposed simple lifestyle, he has no direct knowledge of these services. He said that shop bought blocks by makers like Harken are poor quality and a rip off. They are certainly expensive-but poor quality? Anyone following this like to comment? I find commercial kit fit for purpose and long lasting on my vessels.

I have said a couple of times before he suffers from inverted snobbery.

As I did when I would regularly beat expensive purpose built racing motorbikes on my street bike tuned up in the shed.

But, in that case it was generally a case of the nut on the handlebars being better than the other handlebar nuts on the start line, not the bike being better. Anyway, I got my come-uppance when I graduated from club racing to National level, I went from a big fish in a small pool to a minnow in an Ocean!

Brent has many, many, brilliant and effective ways of keeping the dreaded corrosion at bay. His construction method is simple and in practice the boats appear strong and safe.

The bottom line, of course, is would you wish to build and sail one?

Answers on the back of a $20 Dollar note sent to " Make rotrax a rich man fund " Wellington, NZ.

 

[GHA]

Inside maintenance after a 30 years ..

 

[ianabc]

There might be a reason that prevents the military, coastguard, commercial operations

from using acid on rusty steel

and then an epoxy coating.

 

[rotrax]

There might be a reason that prevents the military, coastguard, commercial operations

from using acid on rusty steel

and then an epoxy coating.

Strange-phosphoric acid is used by Alaskan fishermen to remove surface rust from gear and tools on a regular basis-they are surely commercial.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Strange-phosphoric acid is used by Alaskan fishermen to remove surface rust from gear and tools on a regular basis-they are surely commercial.

And acid is used to treat rust on warships too.

 

[GHA]

There might be a reason that prevents the military, coastguard, commercial operations

from using acid on rusty steel

and then an epoxy coating.

Just as there are reasons why liveaboard cruisers do.

 

[Brent Swain]

There might be a reason that prevents the military, coastguard, commercial operations

from using acid on rusty steel

and then an epoxy coating.

I rowed all the marinas in Comox, and no sign of any steel 37 footer which is not my design. Which back yard are you hiding in?

 

[Brent Swain]

Muriatic acid keeps corrosion going on behind the epoxy, no matter how hard I try to wash it all off .. Not so much the case with phosphoric acid .

 

[Brent Swain]

First Mate and I have been away up North with the family for a camping and fishing holiday. I am surprised that another 20 pages of this thread have happened while I have been away.

It is clear that Brent can build a steel boat for little money and go sailing without making much of a dent in the worlds ecosystems. The boats he designs and builds appear to be safe and strong. Well done Brent-I have said that several times-you have a solution for inexpensive sailing. But only for those who find that way of getting into sailing/long term cruising attractive.

Many-I would suggest most-other sailors who wish to embrace a cruising lifestyle don't choose Brent's way. What has consistently pissed me off is the constant disparaging remarks about GRP boats and their owners, and the support from sailing depots and trades that support them.
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Those who don{t choose my way will take much longer, and much greater expense before breaking free, with zero benefit or advantage for doing so. Few working for working man{s wages will break free in their early 20s.
I used to drool over the commercially made gear in the yotti shops, before crossing the Pacific. Wish I had the info in my book back then. After cruising offshore a bit, I found it not worth using , finding I can make much better gear in less time than it takes to go buy it.
With so many GRP boat owners constantly attacking steel boats, it takes pushback, and many corrections of their disinformation , to balance it , and not let it disinform people .
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Plus the fact that, because of his self imposed simple lifestyle, he has no direct knowledge of these services. He said that shop bought blocks by makers like Harken are poor quality and a rip off. They are certainly expensive-but poor quality? Anyone following this like to comment? I find commercial kit fit for purpose and long lasting on my vessels.
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What is it that convinces you that plastic cheeks , however fancy, with a thin pin, is stronger than 3/16th aluminium plate 1 1/4 inches wide, with a 3/8th inch SS bolt for a pin, and a solid sheave of poly, instead of a thin brittle plastic one?
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I have said a couple of times before he suffers from inverted snobbery.

As I did when I would regularly beat expensive purpose built racing motorbikes on my street bike tuned up in the shed.

But, in that case it was generally a case of the nut on the handlebars being better than the other handlebar nuts on the start line, not the bike being better. Anyway, I got my come-uppance when I graduated from club racing to National level, I went from a big fish in a small pool to a minnow in an Ocean!

Brent has many, many, brilliant and effective ways of keeping the dreaded corrosion at bay. His construction method is simple and in practice the boats appear strong and safe.

The bottom line, of course, is would you wish to build and sail one?
´Quote
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Those who do, have no regrets, and tend to hold on to them for decades, including extensive ocean cruising, before they even consider selling them , and are often people with extensive offshore cruising experience. My only critics are those who know the least about my boats, and have zero experience with one. All have checked out other options, and most have experienced other options.

 

[rotrax]

We have heard all that many times before, and just as before it shows how you consider YOUR way to be the only way to indulge in a cruising lifestyle. You completely discount the hundreds of thousands-perhaps millions- of worldwide boat owners who are happy with GRP and other materials, commercial products and services and don't wish to drop out of mainstream society and become a full time cruiser/ liveaboards. Careers, family and other interests mean more to them than building and cruising on an origami steel boat.

You have been asked before to use the quote facility that highlights the post you are answering.

Your last post is really difficult to read due to the text all the same colour.

This so called " attacking " of steel boats by GRP boat owners only exists in your mind. Any criticisms made can be no different to your remarks-probably less so-re "Plastic eggshells " and " Marina Queens ".

You sow what you reap, Brent.

All I have ever said is that steel boats for most owners are a maintenance nightmare.

For you and other enlightened steel boat owners, that may not be the case. Not all steel boats have had your excellent anti rust ideas incorporated.

So, from direct experience of a 32 year old steel boat and contact with the owners of similar vessels, I know that maintaining the steelwork and keeping it looking good and corrosion free inside and out is a major and time consuming task.

Unlike GRP.

That is not an attack on steel boats Brent, it is a factual statement from my and other steel boat owners experiences.

 

[Brent Swain]

Hers a recent post from the face book metal boats page. Computers are a bit funky here in Mexico, but I think I have found a good one.

Gerd Marggraff
Admin · January 21 at 10:22 PM

We are on way south from Alaska. Thor made it to San Diego battling southerlies (!) most of the way. We are very happy to have our 250hp Deutz! What a trip. Five miles off Catalina Island, In the night, we hit a huge floating pylon with metal fittings that put a big gouge in our bow plate. In a fiberglass boat, this would have looked very different. Hopefully we will have smooth sailing to Panama. Will keep you posted.

 

[Brent Swain]

We have heard all that many times before, and just as before it shows how you consider YOUR way to be the only way to indulge in a cruising lifestyle. You completely discount the hundreds of thousands-perhaps millions- of worldwide boat owners who are happy with GRP and other materials, commercial products and services and don't wish to drop out of mainstream society and become a full time cruiser/ liveaboards. Careers, family and other interests mean more to them than building and cruising on an origami steel boat.
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Your words not mine. Another one of your ""straw man"" arguements.
I have never said it is the only way, just the best way, an option few would be aware of, if I didnt make them aware of it . Without my posts, they would be misled to beleve YOUR way is their only option ( you'd love that). Some have a big finacial stake in having people believe that. which is why they pile on , constantly attacking me and my posts.
You say YOU dont have any favorite options? You say I should post what I DON"T believe, which is what YOU do?
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You have been asked before to use the quote facility that highlights the post you are answering.

Your last post is really difficult to read due to the text all the same colour.
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Tell me how to do that. Instructions please? I am of the pre-computer generation. Been too busy acquiring cruising and building experience ( which is what these threads are supposed to be about) to waste much time acquiring compuer skills.
Many of my critics do the opposite, and use ther computer skills to attack, using everything from photo shopping distortion into pictures, to changing the text of my posts when quoting me, to making up quotes and attributing them to me, to taking them totaly out of context, cutting out context, ,etc, etc, the list goes on .
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This so called " attacking " of steel boats by GRP boat owners only exists in your mind. Any criticisms made can be no different to your remarks-probably less so-re "Plastic eggshells " and " Marina Queens ".
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Statement of fact, to minimize risk to life.
A moral obligation.
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You sow what you reap, Brent.

All I have ever said is that steel boats for most owners are a maintenance nightmare.
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I have said it can be ,if you do things wrong, but not if you do them right.

There is a stock plastic boat , a Valiant 40, near one place where I spend a lot of time, blistered from bow to stern. Offset hatch, well off the centreline, would be underwater in a knock down. Close the hatch? A louvered teak door , stock on those boats, would barely slow down the water ingress. Brilliant designing! Bow roller far too fragile to survive an anchor jammed under a rock, when raising it in any swell. Stancions well inboard, flat on the deck, (lacking the wisdom the Brits have had for a half century, raising them above the deck) toe busters , eating up side deck space, to give standing water lots of time to leak thru. Rotting wood trim, leaky, fragile wooden hatches, and hand rails, etc, far more maintenance than on any well built and painted steel boat. Cheap, brittle plastic thru hulls, exposed to the full strength of UV , which I have seen break them down until I could slap them off with my hand, leaving a 2 inch (50mm) hole in the hull. The list goes on; and on and on .
Friends here, who bought older plastic boats have far more maintenance than I have, by a wide margin. Most have rotten balsa cores, and major problems with the hull- deck connection , along with knee high, plastic coated lifelines (trip wires).
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For you and other enlightened steel boat owners, that may not be the case. Not all steel boats have had your excellent anti rust ideas incorporated.
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Thst is why I wrote the book, and pass on what I have learned, or try to . No "closely guarded trade secrets"" here.

So, from direct experience of a 32 year old steel boat and contact with the owners of similar vessels, I know that maintaining the steelwork and keeping it looking good and corrosion free inside and out is a major and time consuming task.
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Only if you are doing something wrong.
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Unlike GRP.

That is not an attack on steel boats Brent, it is a factual statement from my and other steel ,
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That is why I have given ways to avoid the problems, or tried to. Try them , you will like them!
You have lots of maintenance problems, I have few, and you say I have it wrong?

 

[Brent Swain]

We have heard all that many times before, and just as before it shows how you consider YOUR way to be the only way to indulge in a cruising lifestyle. You completely discount the hundreds of thousands-perhaps millions- of worldwide boat owners who are happy with GRP and other materials, commercial products and services and don't wish to drop out of mainstream society and become a full time cruiser/ liveaboards. Careers, family and other interests mean more to them than building and cruising on an origami steel boat.

You have been asked before to use the quote facility that highlights the post you are answering.

Your last post is really difficult to read due to the text all the same colour.

This so called " attacking " of steel boats by GRP boat owners only exists in your mind. Any criticisms made can be no different to your remarks-probably less so-re "Plastic eggshells " and " Marina Queens ".

You sow what you reap, Brent.

All I have ever said is that steel boats for most owners are a maintenance nightmare.

For you and other enlightened steel boat owners, that may not be the case. Not all steel boats have had your excellent anti rust ideas incorporated.

So, from direct experience of a 32 year old steel boat and contact with the owners of similar vessels, I know that maintaining the steelwork and keeping it looking good and corrosion free inside and out is a major and time consuming task.

Unlike GRP.

That is not an attack on steel boats Brent, it is a factual statement from my and other steel boat owners experiences.

I just wrote up a long response to this, posted it, then tried to edit, and this Mexican computer deleted the works.
Will try again, when I get back home, where computers more or less work. Maybe the editor can find it and post it again.
Time for siesta.

 

[john_morris_uk]

To reply with the text in quotes, you can just press "Reply with quote" button which is the bottom right of the post you are trying to reply to. The system will automatically put the post in a box.

Just make sure that you don't overtype the square brackets and start your reply outside the quoted text.

You can use the 'Go Advanced' button (again at the bottom right but when you are in editing mode) to check what your reply will look like.

 

[rotrax]

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That is why I have given ways to avoid the problems, or tried to. Try them , you will like them!
You have lots of maintenance problems, I have few, and you say I have it wrong?

You see Brent, this is where your narrow vision of sailing lets you down. All my life I have been a " doer"-I do things. First Mate and I love our Grandchildren and spend lots of time hanging out with them when in NZ.

We love boats and being on the water, even if not as full time cruising liveaboards. When our steel Hartley was purchased it cost £4250-$8500 NZ Dollars-4 years ago. Being perfectly honest, fine vessel as it is, it is not worth us investing much more time and money in her. We are only in NZ for 5 months each year and we have other things to be doing than completely gutting, sandblasting and re-doing the inside of a 32 year old steel boat to your standards to keep it corrosion free.

It is not a good use of our remaining time on this planet, which is finite and fast running out.

Of course it could be fixed so as to be as good as one of your boats and incorporate your anti corrosion systems, but in my ownership it is not going to be.

Our perspective is that we will use it as often as possible, keep its mechanics and rig safe and seaworthy and looking as good as we can and improve and modify it as we go along. The rust is something unwelcome, but, as we bought a cheap steel boat, hardly unexpected!

You don't have the rust proofing of steel boats wrong Brent-it's just that most steel boats were not built incorporating them. Doing it after 32 years is not worth the candle financially and timewise on a cheap boat for us-we have other interests in life. Plus we are both the wrong side of 70 years old with mobility problems. Doing the windows this year was a major issue for us, just climbing up and down the ladders and yard work platforms was hard and often painful.

 

[Mister E]

You see Brent, this is where your narrow vision of sailing lets you down. All my life I have been a " doer"-I do things. First Mate and I love our Grandchildren and spend lots of time hanging out with them when in NZ.

We love boats and being on the water, even if not as full time cruising liveaboards. When our steel Hartley was purchased it cost £4250-$8500 NZ Dollars-4 years ago. Being perfectly honest, fine vessel as it is, it is not worth us investing much more time and money in her. We are only in NZ for 5 months each year and we have other things to be doing than completely gutting, sandblasting and re-doing the inside of a 32 year old steel boat to your standards to keep it corrosion free.

It is not a good use of our remaining time on this planet, which is finite and fast running out.

Of course it could be fixed so as to be as good as one of your boats and incorporate your anti corrosion systems, but in my ownership it is not going to be.

Our perspective is that we will use it as often as possible, keep its mechanics and rig safe and seaworthy and looking as good as we can and improve and modify it as we go along. The rust is something unwelcome, but, as we bought a cheap steel boat, hardly unexpected!

You don't have the rust proofing of steel boats wrong Brent-it's just that most steel boats were not built incorporating them. Doing it after 32 years is not worth the candle financially and timewise on a cheap boat for us-we have other interests in life. Plus we are both the wrong side of 70 years old with mobility problems. Doing the windows this year was a major issue for us, just climbing up and down the ladders and yard work platforms was hard and often painful.

Sir he is not really listening because he now has people stating how good his anti corrosion stuff is.
We have now been informed about a book that he is trying to sellas well.

 

[rotrax]

Sir he is not really listening because he now has people stating how good his anti corrosion stuff is.
We have now been informed about a book that he is trying to sellas well.

I think you are right-he rarely listens and takes note of implied comment. He starts from first base believing he is always right, and often lets himself down by posting in regard to things he has no direct experience of-IE Island Packet yachts and the maintenance procedures at our JSASTC in Gosport.

 

[DownWest]

I think you are right-he rarely listens and takes note of implied comment. He starts from first base believing he is always right, and often lets himself down by posting in regard to things he has no direct experience of-IE Island Packet yachts and the maintenance procedures at our JSASTC in Gosport.

The bit I liked, was 'his moral obligation' to save lives by promoting his ideas. Yeh...

 

[Brent Swain]

You see Brent, this is where your narrow vision of sailing lets you down. All my life I have been a " doer"-I do things. First Mate and I love our Grandchildren and spend lots of time hanging out with them when in NZ.

We love boats and being on the water, even if not as full time cruising liveaboards. When our steel Hartley was purchased it cost £4250-$8500 NZ Dollars-4 years ago. Being perfectly honest, fine vessel as it is, it is not worth us investing much more time and money in her. We are only in NZ for 5 months each year and we have other things to be doing than completely gutting, sandblasting and re-doing the inside of a 32 year old steel boat to your standards to keep it corrosion free.

It is not a good use of our remaining time on this planet, which is finite and fast running out.

Of course it could be fixed so as to be as good as one of your boats and incorporate your anti corrosion systems, but in my ownership it is not going to be.

Our perspective is that we will use it as often as possible, keep its mechanics and rig safe and seaworthy and looking as good as we can and improve and modify it as we go along. The rust is something unwelcome, but, as we bought a cheap steel boat, hardly unexpected!

You don't have the rust proofing of steel boats wrong Brent-it's just that most steel boats were not built incorporating them. Doing it after 32 years is not worth the candle financially and timewise on a cheap boat for us-we have other interests in life. Plus we are both the wrong side of 70 years old with mobility problems. Doing the windows this year was a major issue for us, just climbing up and down the ladders and yard work platforms was hard and often painful.

In your situation, you are absolutley right.
My posts are aimed at those who plan on extensive cruising, for boats which are a way of life, full time crusing and liveaboard, and definitley do not apply to your situation.
A freind didnt like my 3 ft high solid lifelines ,until he was diagnosed with parkinsons. Now he is keen on them.''' Doesn''t take more than an afternoon to install them.
Another client was working with the disabled, and was considering how to get a wheel chair aboard. Solid lifelines and good handholds give them far more mobilty than a wheel chair aboard ever would. It would be a millstone around their neck. Ditto lots of handrails inside.
Overhead handrails rip shoulders, shoulder height ones don''t.

 

[Brent Swain]

To reply with the text in quotes, you can just press "Reply with quote" button which is the bottom right of the post you are trying to reply to. The system will automatically put the post in a box.

Just make sure that you don't overtype the square brackets and start your reply outside the quoted text.

You can use the 'Go Advanced' button (again at the bottom right but when you are in editing mode) to check what your reply will look like.

Thanks John .Will give it a try.