Steelboats

[NormanS]

I don't manufacture boats, therefore am not responsible for quality control! BS builds boats for customers, I am assuming he gets paid for them, therefore I am interested in the Quality Control that he has for materials.

I have spoken to a manufacturer of boats who had problems with the quality of raw materials. Somebody in the supply chain was swapping high grade materials for cheaper, lower grade stuff and after a lot of failures in service did a huge amount of work to sort out the problem. Eventually going back to the component manufacturer and getting certified supplies and as if by magic the problem stopped.

So you have spoken to "someone" involved in boat manufacturing, who had dealings with "someone". Wow! That's impressive! Was the material in question, steel?

 

[robertj]

But it didn’t take long before some people were much better than others at forming and lashing the strakes together. They formed guilds and became master craftsmen. They kept their trade secrets safe but they handed down best practice to their apprentices.

Eventually mathematical modelling and research came along.

I am very happy to agree that a hands on iterative process can produce good products but to ignore hard won research and strength calculations is foolish. If Brent sold his designs in some countries and there was an incident that lawyers could ascribe to his work or design (and lack of basic calculations) then he’d find himself in deep guano.

I don’t have a particular problem with him building his boats or sailing them and crashing them.

I do have a problem with the potential for dreamers to get suckered into his world without knowing the full facts. Lack of calc’s is just part of the Brent Swain fantasy. His only retort is to point out he and a few others have sailed this way for years. As most people recognise, that means diddly squat. Many years ago hundreds of people running steam engines and boilers claimed that they’d always built them this way and there was no problem. A few explosions and deaths and certifications and inspections of boilers became mandatory.

Fortunately, even in contemporary UK you can still build a modestly sized boat and put to sea without any qualification or testing. (I’m assuming it’s not commercial and it’s under SOLAS size). However making outrageously phantasmagorical claims about how safe ‘your’ design and practices are’. is not sensible and needs to be challenged.

This is not personal is it John?
There are no records of BS boats being dangerous or having sunk etc., or do you have evidence that one or some have floundered through poor quality in the build or design?

 

[NormanS]

But it didn’t take long before some people were much better than others at forming and lashing the strakes together. They formed guilds and became master craftsmen. They kept their trade secrets safe but they handed down best practice to their apprentices.

Eventually mathematical modelling and research came along.

I am very happy to agree that a hands on iterative process can produce good products but to ignore hard won research and strength calculations is foolish. If Brent sold his designs in some countries and there was an incident that lawyers could ascribe to his work or design (and lack of basic calculations) then he’d find himself in deep guano.

I don’t have a particular problem with him building his boats or sailing them and crashing them.

I do have a problem with the potential for dreamers to get suckered into his world without knowing the full facts. Lack of calc’s is just part of the Brent Swain fantasy. His only retort is to point out he and a few others have sailed this way for years. As most people recognise, that means diddly squat. Many years ago hundreds of people running steam engines and boilers claimed that they’d always built them this way and there was no problem. A few explosions and deaths and certifications and inspections of boilers became mandatory.

Fortunately, even in contemporary UK you can still build a modestly sized boat and put to sea without any qualification or testing. (I’m assuming it’s not commercial and it’s under SOLAS size). However making outrageously phantasmagorical claims about how safe ‘your’ design and practices are’. is not sensible and needs to be challenged.

As far as I'm aware, none of Brent's boats have (so far) been fitted with home made or uncertificated steam engines or boilers, so he's in the clear as far as that's concerned. Does that not count as an outrageous and phantasmagorical (to use your favourite terms) departure from the issue of building small steel yachts.

 

[Wansworth]

Its theBrent Swains That keep us free of claustrophobic correctness of which you will find in Europe with its obsession with paper work and inspections and certifications and qualifications ,long live the likes of BS!

 

[Achosenman]

Its theBrent Swains That keep us free of claustrophobic correctness of which you will find in Europe with its obsession with paper work and inspections and certifications and qualifications ,long live the likes of BS!

But you don't mean that.

You would no more step aboard a passenger plane that wasn't properly designed and certificated and operated by qualified crew, than anyone else. To pretend otherwise requires a suspension of rational thought.

 

[GHA]

But you don't mean that.

You would no more step aboard a passenger plane that wasn't properly designed and certificated and operated by qualified crew, than anyone else. To pretend otherwise requires a suspension of rational thought.

But you don't mean that.

As a kid I didn't hesitate crossing a lake on a few tin cans strapped to a plank or 2.

Floating is easy, flying isn't.

To pretend otherwise requires a suspension of rational thought.

 

[NormanS]

But you don't mean that.

You would no more step aboard a passenger plane that wasn't properly designed and certificated and operated by qualified crew, than anyone else. To pretend otherwise requires a suspension of rational thought.

Good heavens, don't tell me he's building origami aeroplanes! No, I thought not.

 

[Wansworth]

Let’s all sit at home and wait for a qualified engineer turns up to turn the tap on!

 

[Achosenman]

Good heavens, don't tell me he's building origami aeroplanes! No, I thought not.

Being deliberately obtuse in order to generate a counterpoint just shows you have no point.

 

[Achosenman]

Last time I looked, turning a tap on didn't require any designing skills.

 

[NormanS]

Being deliberately obtuse in order to generate a counterpoint just shows you have no point.

It wasn't me who introduced aeroplanes into this saga.

 

[Achosenman]

But you don't mean that.

As a kid I didn't hesitate crossing a lake on a few tin cans strapped to a plank or 2.

Floating is easy, flying isn't.

To pretend otherwise requires a suspension of rational thought.

Agreed to a point. Being a child gave rise to all sorts of daft escapades. Last time I looked, oceans were not lakes and no-one was selling a few tin cans as an ocean going vessel.

You can sail in a skip and survive, it still doesn't make it a properly designed yacht.

 

[Achosenman]

It wasn't me who introduced aeroplanes into this saga.

No it wasn't, it was me.

However the point was used to illustrate the absurdity of the posters argument that rules, regulation and qualifications are not needed in potentially dangerous undertakings.

You understand very well the point made but chose to ignore it.

 

[GHA]

Last time I looked, oceans were not lakes and no-one was selling a few tin cans as an ocean going vessel.

You can sail in a skip and survive, it still doesn't make it a properly designed yacht.

People have been successfully crossing oceans in vessels built by eye and experience for many thousands of years. Your comparing the design of a small sailing boat with a plane is completely ludicrous.

 

[Wansworth]

Last time I looked, turning a tap on didn't require any designing skills.

Just taking your point to the absurd as you do with yacht design and building!

 

[NormanS]

It's good that there are some PRACTICAL boat owners on this forum.

 

[capnsensible]

There are quite a lot that go sailing rather than talk about it too!

 

[Achosenman]

People have been successfully crossing oceans in vessels built by eye and experience for many thousands of years. Your comparing the design of a small sailing boat with a plane is completely ludicrous.

No one is saying they haven't. That has no bearing on what we know about boat design today. With the benefit of tank testing and computer modeling we know far more than they did when they were hacking out their dugouts.

Design in light aircraft is no more complex than boat design. The calculations are about par in complexity. Anyone with rudimentary skills in construction can cobble together a workable craft for either air or water. It might work, it might not. No problems if it's for personal use. IMO, the game changes when you then sell it to members of the public.

 

[Wansworth]

Googling Brent Swain would appear he has some quite seaworthy boats to his name.

 

[GHA]

Design in light aircraft is no more complex than boat design.

Back peddling now

You would no more step aboard a passenger plane that wasn't properly designed and certificated and operated by qualified crew, than anyone else.