Steelboats

[Achosenman]

Back peddling now

Light aircraft have a maximum take off weight up to 12500lbs. Some pretty capable aircraft are in that weight category.
My first commercial job in aviation was flying a BE200 Super King Air. Guess what the category was.

 

[GHA]

Light aircraft have a maximum take off weight up to 12500lbs. Some pretty capable aircraft are in that weight category.
My first commercial job in aviation was flying a BE200 Super King Air. Guess what the category was.

 

[Achosenman]

Sorry no. You are just demonstrating your lack of knowledge...amusing as your post is. :encouragement:

 

[john_morris_uk]

Googling Brent Swain would appear he has some quite seaworthy boats to his name.

By whose measurements or judgement? It may or may not be true. It certainly seems to be the case that some of his boats have made some ocean passages. The Hindenburg Airship carried lots of passengers but that didn’t make it well designed (or safe)

Lots of old tubs cross oceans but it t doesn’t make them great designs. Brent makes big claims. Some are dangerous advice and need to be challenged.

I freely admit Brent may have some good ideas but he’s got no sense of perspective or balance in his arguments.

 

[lpdsn]

People have been successfully crossing oceans in vessels built by eye and experience for many thousands of years.

Exactly. And we know a great deal about them (admittedly, mainly from the wrecks littering the sea bed) so can see that good designs arose from the trial and error method over hundred or thousands of years. I didn't realise BS had been using this design method for that long though.

 

[GHA]

Sorry no. You are just demonstrating your lack of knowledge...amusing as your post is. :encouragement:

Think you have that the wrong way round...

Design in light aircraft is no more complex than boat design.

Odd that people have been designing and sailing boats for countless centuries.

 

[Skylark]

Odd that people have been designing and sailing boats for countless centuries.

A bit like the Mary Rose and the Vasa

The role of Legislators is to keep us safe. Their instrument is known as a Standard (BS, ISO, DIN, CE etc etc). Lessons learned from disasters and misadventures are used by Legislators to implement new Standards, where needed, such as the RCD evolved out of Fastnet.

RCD has delivered very significant improvements to seagoing safety and no new boat within Europe can be sold without compliance. Gaining compliance is no small matter and will involve a mix of theoretical and practical assessments.

There will always be room for self build and long may it continue.

Mr S appears to offer some good advice based upon his hands-on experience but it is for others to draw conclusions as to his professional standing after reading (somewhere buried in this thread) his attempt to quote design loading versus raw material strength (iirc) and his continual disparaging and uncompromising comments about yacht designers, marine traders and plastic boats.

 

[Wansworth]

Iconoclast?

 

[Achosenman]

Think you have that the wrong way round...



Odd that people have been designing and sailing boats for countless centuries.

The Wright brothers built the "flyer" It flew...they thought it "looked right" to a point, they were correct. Do we know better today? Is the Wright Flyer in use today? Have we moved on to better designs, with better materials due to better understanding?

I have no problem if sailors want to go to sea in a boat cobbled together in field by an amateur welder. I do have a problem with those creations being sold to the public. I have no problem with the fanboys of BS, I tend to lump them together with Chem trailers, Flat Earther's and the "Moon landings were fake" brigade... IE, mostly harmless and entitled to their view.

I'm just not prepared to let them **ss down my back and tell me it's rain.

 

[DownWest]

The Wright brothers built the "flyer" It flew...they thought it "looked right" to a point, they were correct. Do we know better today? Is the Wright Flyer in use today? Have we moved on to better designs, with better materials due to better understanding?
.

As I think you would know, the Wrights built a wind tunnel and tested their aerofoils. The big problem with heavier than air flight was finding an engine light enough with sufficient power to haul an airframe into flight. (Gliders had been around for a bit e.g. Lillienthal) They built that too. So, not too much 'looking right' about their efforts.

 

[Achosenman]

As I think you would know, the Wrights built a wind tunnel and tested their aerofoils. The big problem with heavier than air flight was finding an engine light enough with sufficient power to haul an airframe into flight. (Gliders had been around for a bit e.g. Lillienthal) They built that too. So, not too much 'looking right' about their efforts.

Otto Lilienthal, the German engineer and mathematician used sound principles and testing to design his machines. The Wright Flyer looked uncannily similar to Otto's 1895 machine. They indeed thought it looked right based on what they knew at the time. Modern gliders out perform the Flyer in every respect today. The Wright Brothers knew ailerons were the way to go for lateral control but nothing could be built light enough for the engine of the day.

Looking back at history, all of mankind's machines have evolved and improved as knowledge and understanding has increased.

Sailing is no different.

 

[Wansworth]

That’s as maybe but many yachts are built to a formula for racing not for load carrying or ease of use as voyaging boats.on many old boats they have square cabins ideal for sitting on unlike many modern boats with cabins with slopping sides not good to walk on or sit on.Boats and yachts are not like planes and cars and all your so called calculations do not necessarily produce a better craft

 

[rogerthebodger]

. No problems if it's for personal use. IMO, the game changes when you then sell it to members of the public.

This is the issue when the lawyers get involved when you start to "sell" the information to money.

If something goes wrong as a "professional" or charted Engineer you can be held personally accountable to any fault that causes loss of life or property.

You need to back up your designs with proper calculations once yo go into the "professional business of supplying designs. If you don't you open yourself up to big claims of compensation.

Brent may get away with it as he seems to have no assets to claim.

This is why I don't supply anything for money as I am not supplying anything now for money.

 

[Achosenman]

That’s as maybe but many yachts are built to a formula for racing not for load carrying or ease of use as voyaging boats.on many old boats they have square cabins ideal for sitting on unlike many modern boats with cabins with slopping sides not good to walk on or sit on.Boats and yachts are not like planes and cars and all your so called calculations do not necessarily produce a better craft

"Better" is a very subjective adjective. One sailors "better" is another sailors "pig ugly rust bucket"

 

[DownWest]

That’s as maybe but many yachts are built to a formula for racing not for load carrying or ease of use as voyaging boats.on many old boats they have square cabins ideal for sitting on unlike many modern boats with cabins with slopping sides not good to walk on or sit on.Boats and yachts are not like planes and cars and all your so called calculations do not necessarily produce a better craft

Very few, if any, boats are built without calculations now. Simply because the cost of getting it wrong is disproportionate. Boats and yachts ARE like planes and cars. Crunching the numbers is not costly. Getting it wrong IS.
Racing rules do produce shapes and rigs that are copied in the general production world. A cetrain amount of 'Fashion' is involved, as yacht ownership is discretionary funded. Any body wanting to get somewhere fast, would not buy one.

 

[[70521]]

So you have spoken to "someone" involved in boat manufacturing, who had dealings with "someone". Wow! That's impressive! Was the material in question, steel?

Forgive me. I speak to lots of people in my line of work, in a lot of different companies and I am not at liberty to disclose a lot of things to do with work, hence I have to be vague. Yes the material was steel.

 

[robertj]

It seems to me Brent S builds good seaworthy boats that carry his customers to varying parts of the world on safety, whether they are comfortable I would not know as I’ve not sailed any. This doesn’t seem to stop the council of so called experts who have built nothing but can critisise and demonise his creations.
I’ve read nearly all these posts and Brent is robust in his defence of his boats but some I feel are taking it personally that he doesn’t bow to their supposed knowledge.

 

[DownWest]

It seems to me Brent S builds good seaworthy boats that carry his customers to varying parts of the world on safety, whether they are comfortable I would not know as I’ve not sailed any. This doesn’t seem to stop the council of so called experts who have built nothing but can critisise and demonise his creations.
I’ve read nearly all these posts and Brent is robust in his defence of his boats but some I feel are taking it personally that he doesn’t bow to their supposed knowledge.

Yes, he does, but you missed out the bit where he runs down other materials as not fit for purpose. Routinely calls designers, builders and sellers incompetant, crooks, or worse, just because they cater for the majority of boat users.
Good for him, doing it on the cheap. But he has to rely on some one else paying full price before he gets a second hand bargine mast, or sail. So don't critisize that first buyer.
It would also help if he engaged in discussions, instead of trotting out the same old stories as 'proof' of his ideas.
His methods might build a basic hull in slightly shorter time than other ones. But that is only part of the story. The rig and fitting out are much the same for any boat. The vids show people who don't bother with fitting out. Fine, but not to most peoples tastes.

 

[lpdsn]

It seems to me Brent S builds good seaworthy boats that carry his customers to varying parts of the world on safety...

I'm not so sure there. The extraordinarily high accident rate he reports makes me wonder whether there are handling issues. In general, it's going to windward where the number crunchers have shown themselves to best advantage.

 

[GHA]

In general, it's going to windward where the number crunchers have shown themselves to best advantage.

Not massively relevant though, these are cruising boats and the majority rarely go to windward. There was a survey by Evans Starzinger showing this but can't find it now. Also the calcs fall apart a bit once you add good few tonnes above the design weight to go cruising and have a load of stuff on deck.