Steelboats

[myquest]

That one looks positively luxurious compared to this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc

 

[Brent Swain]

You've been shown video of a GRP boat being sailed hard into metal objects and rocks and bouncing off.
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For 16 days a on a Baja lee shore? Over 300 yards of Fijian coral reef? Different ball of wax from a one time, brief encounter.
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Sails, gear, bunk cushions etc to a decent standard cost money. Good gear and good sails makes boat sail faster and more efficiently. You can't escape that simple fact.
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In determining speed, don't forget to take into account the time and mileage lost ,while you go to work to pay for it.
My extremely inexpensive bunk cushions are far easier on my back than super expensive memory foam I have tried. Under $50 total.
My $75 anchor winch , my $80 furler , my $50 windvane, my $2 sheet blocks , my $50 composting head, my $700 , 540 GPD watermaker, my $50 heater, my $50 engine driven welder, all work flawlessly , and have for most of the last 34 years, a far better track record than you can expect out of most commercially made gear.
Used sails in good shape cost me around $350 for a genny and $350 for a main.New would be $thousands, a year's worth of cruising funds, giving me a years head start on the guy who bought new ones. He wont catch up to me in the time it i takes his to wear out.
Don't assume a high price automatically guarantees good gear. That's a used car salesman's suckers game. The gear I build for my self, from $150 a pound stainless, etc, is far better quality than the high price stuff in yottie suppliers.
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You belittle qualified and experienced naval architects (your attitude actually reduces your standing IMHO).
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Treating them like sacred cows , immune to anyone pointing out their screwups, and misconceptions, is a disservice to their victims, and cruisers in general. When someone accuses me of making more screwups than "their holy infallibilities"readers have the right to see that myth corrected._____________________________________________________________________________

You refer to plastic eggshells which is not what many GRP boats are in reality. A friend's hull was measured at being several inches thick beneath the waterline. Don't tell me that it going to split or be holed easily.
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No it wont, but an inch of glass is heavier than 3/16th steel plate, several inches several times as heavy, and exponentially more expensive.
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Regarding my question about running boats onto a lee shore; nowhere did I mention that the question had anything to do with whether the hull was steel or GRP. I just noticed that you seem to have done it rather a lot compared with most people and certainly compared with myself and I asked it I was just lucky. Perhaps the fact that your boats are built and sailed by sailing bums on low budgets (nothing wrong with that per se) correlates with an inability to keep out of danger? Who knows? I haven't made any such suggestion. I've merely asked the question about the number of times you and people sailing your design and build of boats have ended up aground on a lee shore.
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And I answered that,4 boats, out of hundreds, (which you declined to read)
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Ultimately one makes choices according to ones means and according to what one assesses the risks to be. The vast majority (and we are talking 99.9%) of sailors choose GRP because it's low maintenance and they assess the risks of catastrophic damage to be negligible. Our own boat is (currently) GRP but we have a liferaft on an autorelease (it floats free if the boat sinks) device in case something catastrophic happens. The chances are that nothing ever will, but just in case, that's our fall back.

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Some of us consider it wiser to choose a hull material which is exponentially less likely to be holed than one which requires a rubber ducky as insurance against the much greater liklihood of being holed (not wanting to repeat the Baily's ,Calahans and Sleavins mistake in choice of hull material.)
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(Examples of being run down by a ship don't count as IMHO they just demonstrate poor seamanship. I'm sympathetic to those to whom this happens, but the sympathy valve is only slightly open. I suggest that I don't get run down by ships because we both keep a good look-out and we also have radar and AIS alarms to use as appropriate. )
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AIS didn't exist for most of my single handed cruising life. Wouldn't go to sea without it now. Containers,logs etc, don't broadcast AIS signals.
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Finally, mentioning boats moored or anchored in harbour being wrecked doesn't support either side in any discussion about sailors poor seamanship and putting their boats onto a lee shore.
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Yes, you infallible guys,who never, ever make mistakes, don 't have the problems we mere humans sometimes encounter.
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If I won the lottery I might consider buying a metal boat. But it would probably be an Ovni. Properly designed and built of aluminium. There again, I might consider a Malo or a Sweden Yachts or a Halberg Rassey.

Good choice, if you have lots of money. Bad choice, for those who have to give up decades of cruising to go that route.Aluminium has its share of problems, including corrosion .

 

[Brent Swain]

Just out of interest Brent
Is that one of your steel boats built by you in your standard 40 hours in a field?

Yes, built by me ,but the rare time had a shop.

 

[sarabande]

So, roughly 200 BS built/designed boats out there.

Cumulative 3500000 miles

That's 1750 miles each.

At an average speed of 4.5kts, that's a total of 390 hours at sea for each one. 16 days EACH.

Something doesn't add up, especially as you have racked up an awful lots of those 350k miles. What does it say about the other boats ?

 

[Skylark]

That one looks positively luxurious compared to this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgWZ7n7kPUc

OMG! Is that what this thread is all about?

Dropping out of society and becoming a world cruising sea gypsy in your 20s, making something like that in the video your home! No wonder Mr S has a jaundiced view of life.

My alternative was to forge a very rewarding and enjoyable career which enabled me to buy a new plastic boat, complete with fire extinguishers and a life raft. To mis-quote my high school chemistry teacher, this was only possible because I paid attention and learned to weld . Another difference between Mr S and me

I don’t think I’ll ever have the good fortune to sail anywhere near Polynesia or elsewhere exotic but I’m happy exploring the stunning waters of Scotland’s west coast.

Fortunately, there’s room in our society for all.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You've been shown video of a GRP boat being sailed hard into metal objects and rocks and bouncing off.
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For 16 days a on a Baja lee shore? Over 300 yards of Fijian coral reef? Different ball of wax from a one time, brief encounter. You do mention this one incident rather a lot. I was referring to the way that you suggest that a GRP yacht is going to hit something and sink sooner or later. The fact is that a well made GRP boat almost certainly isn't going to be holed and sink in the way you keep asserting. It might do, but there's a good chance it might not.
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Sails, gear, bunk cushions etc to a decent standard cost money. Good gear and good sails makes boat sail faster and more efficiently. You can't escape that simple fact.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
In determining speed, don't forget to take into account the time and mileage lost ,while you go to work to pay for it.
My extremely inexpensive bunk cushions are far easier on my back than super expensive memory foam I have tried. Under $50 total.
My $75 anchor winch , my $80 furler , my $50 windvane, my $2 sheet blocks , my $50 composting head, my $700 , 540 GPD watermaker, my $50 heater, my $50 engine driven welder, all work flawlessly , and have for most of the last 34 years, a far better track record than you can expect out of most commercially made gear.
Used sails in good shape cost me around $350 for a genny and $350 for a main.New would be $thousands, a year's worth of cruising funds, giving me a years head start on the guy who bought new ones. He wont catch up to me in the time it i takes his to wear out. I didn't think cruising was a race. I also REALLY don't like living like a bum.
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You belittle qualified and experienced naval architects (your attitude actually reduces your standing IMHO).
__________________________________________________ _____________________
Treating them like sacred cows , immune to anyone pointing out their screwups, and misconceptions, is a disservice to their victims, and cruisers in general. When someone accuses me of making more screwups than "their holy infallibilities"readers have the right to see that myth corrected. I don't treat Naval Architects as sacred cows. They're human and make mistakes like all of us. However I do respect their knowledge and ability to design hulls and how hulls and make calculations about the essential design parameters of sailing vessels.

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You refer to plastic eggshells which is not what many GRP boats are in reality. A friend's hull was measured at being several inches thick beneath the waterline. Don't tell me that it going to split or be holed easily.
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No it wont, but an inch of glass is heavier than 3/16th steel plate, several inches several times as heavy, and exponentially more expensive. And never rusts etc etc. Its a legitimate choice and you've just admitted that your major premise that GRP yachts are dangerous isn't necessarily true.
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Regarding my question about running boats onto a lee shore; nowhere did I mention that the question had anything to do with whether the hull was steel or GRP. I just noticed that you seem to have done it rather a lot compared with most people and certainly compared with myself and I asked it I was just lucky. Perhaps the fact that your boats are built and sailed by sailing bums on low budgets (nothing wrong with that per se) correlates with an inability to keep out of danger? Who knows? I haven't made any such suggestion. I've merely asked the question about the number of times you and people sailing your design and build of boats have ended up aground on a lee shore.
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And I answered that,4 boats, out of hundreds, (which you declined to read) I did read it. Four out of a few hundred boats with lee shore groundings is a big number compared to none for me and most other people IMHO
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Ultimately one makes choices according to ones means and according to what one assesses the risks to be. The vast majority (and we are talking 99.9%) of sailors choose GRP because it's low maintenance and they assess the risks of catastrophic damage to be negligible. Our own boat is (currently) GRP but we have a liferaft on an autorelease (it floats free if the boat sinks) device in case something catastrophic happens. The chances are that nothing ever will, but just in case, that's our fall back.

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Some of us consider it wiser to choose a hull material which is exponentially less likely to be holed than one which requires a rubber ducky as insurance against the much greater liklihood of being holed (not wanting to repeat the Baily's ,Calahans and Sleavins mistake in choice of hull material.) You were asked to stop using pejorative statements. I don't refer to your steel boat as a rust bucket or a floating tin can. Why don;'t you say 'life-raft' instead of the silly phrase 'rubber-ducky'? You would be very grateful for a life-raft if you sank in mid ocean.
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(Examples of being run down by a ship don't count as IMHO they just demonstrate poor seamanship. I'm sympathetic to those to whom this happens, but the sympathy valve is only slightly open. I suggest that I don't get run down by ships because we both keep a good look-out and we also have radar and AIS alarms to use as appropriate. )
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AIS didn't exist for most of my single handed cruising life. Wouldn't go to sea without it now. Containers,logs etc, don't broadcast AIS signals. And your point is? There's no long history of GRP boats being sunk by logs and containers. No list of people missing at sea as has been shown to you several times. You're making it up again.
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Finally, mentioning boats moored or anchored in harbour being wrecked doesn't support either side in any discussion about sailors poor seamanship and putting their boats onto a lee shore.
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Yes, you infallible guys,who never, ever make mistakes, don 't have the problems we mere humans sometimes encounter. I've never said I'm infallible. I was pointing out that you are clutching at straws with some of your arguments. All sorts of boats are wrecked in hurricanes. Some amazing stories of GRP boats surviving (bit inconvenient to you) and lots of GRP boats wrecked. I've been through a hurricane and I've moored a GRP boat up in one in a hurricane hole where it survived completely unscathed. (The decks were nice and clean afterwards though!)
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[robertj]

Out of all the people who read this thread, and out of all the accumulated miles sailed, and out of all those of us who have sailed across oceans and in remote places and high latitudes, I wonder how many have put their boat aground on a lee shore?

As Brent knows, I’ve sailed steel boats and GRP boats (and wooden and ferro) and I’ve sailed across oceans (and I’ve been ‘in uncharted waters but that was on a ship in Antarctica) and in over fifty years of sailing I’ve never put a boat aground on a lee shore. I just wondered whether I’m lucky?

Brent admits to making this mistake more than once. People who buy into his boats and concepts also seem to put themselves on lee shores, so am I the exception?

Confessions please...!

I don’t think that’s a fair comment John.
I feel the steel boat owners reading that would feel that is not the case.

Have you watched ‘emerald steel’ on you tube. As no doubt you will have guessed what material he chose to build rather than grp.

 

[Brent Swain]

So, roughly 200 BS built/designed boats out there.

Cumulative 3500000 miles

That's 1750 miles each.

At an average speed of 4.5kts, that's a total of 390 hours at sea for each one. 16 days EACH.

Something doesn't add up, especially as you have racked up an awful lots of those 350k miles. What does it say about the other boats ?

Looks like trolling, for the sheer, sarcastic pleasure of trolling.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

 

[DownWest]

Looks like trolling, for the sheer, sarcastic pleasure of trolling.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Coming from you, sheer comedy!

 

[Brent Swain]

4 out of hundreds is common in the cruising fleet overall.
I have never said that all plastic boats are going to sink, just that steel drastically reduces the odds of it happening at sea, or on a lee shore .You are making things up, another straw man tactic.

I also REALLY don't like living like a bum.

Some of us don't subscribe to the common belief in "Squanderism", the moral obligation to squander resources , and live lifestyles which would take several more planets to sustain , in the name of snobbery.
Others imply that the minute a piece of stainless, or other gear, is declared "scrap" its entire molecular structure instantly changes into something less ( Nature, and molecular structure is governed by snobbery?)

Some designers are real good at designing hull shapes, but without hands on cruising , building ,maintaining, and living aboard experience, they can be abysmally naive about detail for low maintenance ,ease of construction, and function.
All the calculation skills in the world wont tell you anything about many practical matters, which only experience would give one. That' why flying time is mandatory for flying qualifications.
Harrison Butler figured out hull balance in the mid 1930s, and people on your side of the pond used it to design well balanced hulls, while designers on this side of the pond jeered at his findings, or ignored them, which is what caused my first boat to be such an abortion. Yes, they were fallible, very fallible .

Yank designer Bob Perry put the recent cost of a mold for a 37 footer at $300 K.I don't think the hull and decks would cost much less, with today's prices. Steel for a 36 ft hull and decks is around $9K
Your posts are based on the theory that all cruisers and back yard boat builders are infinitely rich ,advice of little use to any one who is not,in fact best avoided by anyone who is not rich.
That is why new boats today are far thinner and more fragile than older boats.
Yes ,you could find an older boat with a thick hull, but if anyone tried to build a boat that thick commercially today, they would be outsold by the cheaper ,thinner ones , and would quickly go out of business.

Yes there is a history of plastic boats being damaged by logs, rocks and other floating debris, especially around here, and going mis singat sea. Several weeks ago it looked like a solid log boom around here, as piles of logs were floated off beaches by super high tides and gales.
Yes, boats do go missing,and get sunk at sea by collisions with floating debris. Tell the Baileys ,Calahan ,the Sleavins, etc, it doesn't happen!

Ostriches don't bury their heads in the sand .If they did lions would bite their butts off . Ostriches, don't people do!

 

[Brent Swain]

OMG! Is that what this thread is all about?

Dropping out of society and becoming a world cruising sea gypsy in your 20s, making something like that in the video your home! No wonder Mr S has a jaundiced view of life.

My alternative was to forge a very rewarding and enjoyable career which enabled me to buy a new plastic boat, complete with fire extinguishers and a life raft. To mis-quote my high school chemistry teacher, this was only possible because I paid attention and learned to weld . Another difference between Mr S and me

I don’t think I’ll ever have the good fortune to sail anywhere near Polynesia or elsewhere exotic but I’m happy exploring the stunning waters of Scotland’s west coast.

Fortunately, there’s room in our society for all.

Life is what you make it.A guy I met in Hiva Oa, ended up teaching offshore cruising, and quoted me many times , when I said ;"My lifestyle is free for the taking. Anyone who wants to, can live it.
Jaundiced? If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't change much,( except getting into steel hulls sooner.) I wouldn't change lives with anyone else on the planet.
I wouldn't give my South pacific cruising from my early 20s ,for the shiniest plastic boat, and being restricted to only one part of the planet for life.and any career.( altho Scotland looks very interesting ; for a short while).So if you prefer the latter, get your advice from someone who has done it that way, if you prefer the former, get your advice from someone who has done that way.

 

[sarabande]

Brent's definition of a troll:

Someone who asks a question based on the maths that Brent provides, and who doesn't get a straight answer.



I am Spartacus.

 

[Brent Swain]

A quote from Cruisers forum about a plastic Norwegian boat

When Gjevik woke up at 03.00, there was a lot of sea and high waves.
"After a while I received a warning that a pump had started, and I soon realized we took water. I first checked the harbor hull but found nothing. On the starboard hull, however, there was half a meter of water, he said.
Gjevik opened the door to the bathroom, where it turned out to be a big hole.
- It watered water against me. I ran into the lounge and picked up a seat cushion from the sofa. I tried to close the gap with this, but this was useless. The pillow disappeared through the hole and into the sea.

"The hole was probably due to the boat having hit an object in the sea, but since it hurts so much on board when it is troubled sea, we did not hear anything," said Gjevik, who quickly woke up the other three.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...steel-boat-building/page6#ZIGBhy60sDM4yjMF.99

 

[bbg]

Good for you.

Steel rusts. GRP doesn't.

Get over yourself.

 

[newtothis]

A quote from Cruisers forum about a plastic Norwegian boat

[Randomly chosen, n=1 example that BS extrapolates to form an argument," said Gjevik, who inconveniently survived the ordeal, thereby robbing BS of his evidence that all sailors of GRP yachts will die at sea.

Brent, I once saw a rusty steel yacht. All steel yachts, therefore, are unseaworthy tin cans. You can't fault research and evidence like that.

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes, built by me ,but the rare time had a shop.

I cannot believe that you built a hull of that shape in anything like 40 hours.I am a little surprised that you, yourself, was actually capable of building a compound curved hull. Perhaps the picture deceive & it is not. I also note that earlier posts referred to building in double chine,(you mentioned weld lengths & time to do them) but later comments refer to single chine. Something does not add up.
I challenged you to show us a picture of a longer weld than the small weld shown on an earlier post - you have failed to do so & i am still not convinced of your capabilities in this field. Your home made welder probably works, but I might question its ability to give consistent welds. perhaps it does- debatable.
Looking at the pictures of the boat in the picture the whole thing is just a cheap bodge.
I doubt that 99% of the forumites would want to be seen anywhere near such carp.
There is such a thing as pride in one's home & in that heap of s..t pride would be the last thing on the list.( Do you have steel toe capped boots to avoid damage to feet when doing deck work)
I note that you talk about how you have lived a free life avoiding work as much as possible. Well some of us have enjoyed working, raising a family etc. & also feel proud to have actually put something back into society rather than living off of it. It does actually give the act of going cruising a feeling of satisfaction for one's efforts .
Many like to live in an orderly, comfortable, clean society, not like some scruffy, bum, drifting aimlessly from place to place with no real purpose in life.(Many have found, when they have tried it, that it is not all it is cracked up to be & returned to "civilisation") Some of us like to have boats that reflect a standard of lifestyle that we have earned. To go sailing about in a skip would make one feel that one has been a total failure in life, a total lack of self pride, & have probably lived & departed with no useful purpose or contribution to society.
The hand in a bucket of water analogy comes to mind
But to each his own & if all one can aspire to is bumming around doing little of use to the community at large then so be it.

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

If anyone on here is actually interested in getting a steel yacht, there is an Ebbtide bermudan cutter on the Wooden Ships brokerage.
Extended counter, looks nice. Designed by Alan Pape, tough enough to play chicken with ice floes, and she looks very good value indeed at £19k, having been professionally welded and painted recently.
No connection etc... I just think, appropos of steel yachts, you couldn't do much better. Someone please get it bought before I succumb to temptation..

 

[Brent Swain]

I find interesting, the lengths and expenses some will go to, to try make the midships topsides of a steel boat rounder, and "less boxy."( multi chine ,extreme topsides flare, radiused chines, etc.)
Excessive topsides flair drastically reduces waterline beam, for a given overall beam, drastically reducing stability, and ability to carry sail.
If you look at most round bilge cruisers, you see very little round in the space between the sheer and the waterline. and, in most cases, very little flare . The newest Beneteaus have almost none; of either.
Single chine hull performance, of single hard chine boats, like thunderbirds, stars class,"Ragtime":, " Bucaneer,",my 36 footers ,etc, show there is little difference in performance , certainly not enough to justify the sometimes huge increase in complexity, welding, building time, potential for distortion, and expense, nor in having an ugly chine above the waterline, full length.
When there s no justification, neither functionally nor aesthetically, then keep it simple.

 

[Brent Swain]

I cannot believe that you built a hull of that shape in anything like 40 hours.I am a little surprised that you, yourself, was actually capable of building a compound curved hull. Perhaps the picture deceive & it is not. I also note that earlier posts referred to building in double chine,(you mentioned weld lengths & time to do them) but later comments refer to single chine. Something does not add up.
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I did one multi chine, far more work and more complex than was justified. No benefits over single chine.
Make a cardboard model of the plate shape, and pull the edges together, then explain how you could get that to take more than a few days.Yes, some are so tedious they can find a way to make anything take forever.
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I challenged you to show us a picture of a longer weld than the small weld shown on an earlier post - you have failed to do so & i am still not convinced of your capabilities in this field. Your home made welder probably works, but I might question its ability to give consistent welds. perhaps it does- debatable.

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This question was brought up on the origamiboats site. The debate ended when one highly qualified welder said he has used some of the most advanced , and expensive welders available, and found my alternator welder is as good as any of them.It is one of the smoothest DC welders I have ever used.
No, putting a higher price tag on it wont make it weld any better( electrons inside the alternator cant see the price tag, and thus, cant decide how to behave, on that basis).
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Looking at the pictures of the boat in the picture the whole thing is just a cheap bodge.
I doubt that 99% of the forumites would want to be seen anywhere near such carp.
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Keeps my favorite anchorages " formite free" as they keep going to work to pay for their expensive ways of doing things, while I enjoy more empty anchorages, and full time play time., I listen to the traffic reports in the mornings to hear what I am missing , then cut a fart in their honour, and go back to sleep for another hour or two.
One's personal environmental foot print oi directly porportionate to how much money one spends.
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There is such a thing as pride in one's home & in that heap of s..t pride would be the last thing on the list.( Do you have steel toe capped boots to avoid damage to feet when doing deck work)
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There is pride in actually using a boat , and going places, rather than remaining tied to a dock, embellishing, and trying to impress people you don't like , spending money you don't have, to buy things you don't need. Those were my priorities back when I was a naive beginner at the cruising lifestyle. I take pride in having gone so many places, while my critics stay home and embellish,
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I note that you talk about how you have lived a free life avoiding work as much as possible. Well some of us have enjoyed working, raising a family etc. & also feel proud to have actually put something back into society rather than living off of it. It does actually give the act of going cruising a feeling of satisfaction for one's efforts .
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All environmental problems are because of over population.If we had a fraction the number of people we could get away with far more, with far less effect on the environment, and a better future for all children, including yours. No, I don't feel morally obligated to screw up their future, by making more people.
I get great satisfaction out of enabling low income people to live their cruising dreams in the safety of a steel hull, without having to persue more money , screwing up the environment ,and your kid's future in the process.
Many I have helped, could not have done it without my methods and more affordable, low environmental impact ways of doing things.
Living on a boat has fraction the environmental impact as land living.
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Many like to live in an orderly, comfortable, clean society, not like some scruffy, bum, drifting aimlessly from place to place with no real purpose in life.(Many have found, when they have tried it, that it is not all it is cracked up to be & returned to "civilisation") Some of us like to have boats that reflect a standard of lifestyle that we have earned. To go sailing about in a skip would make one feel that one has been a total failure in life, a total lack of self pride, & have probably lived & departed with no useful purpose or contribution to society.
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Sounds like the lifestyle which would take several more planets, to sustain long term.
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The hand in a bucket of water analogy comes to mind
But to each his own & if all one can aspire to is bumming around doing little of use to the community at large then so be it.

Yes , to each his own, but we are not buying any guilt trips for living a low environmental impact lifestyle ,taking only what we need, and rejecting the greed ,moral obligation to squander ethic, you advocate.

 

[Brent Swain]

If anyone on here is actually interested in getting a steel yacht, there is an Ebbtide bermudan cutter on the Wooden Ships brokerage.
Extended counter, looks nice. Designed by Alan Pape, tough enough to play chicken with ice floes, and she looks very good value indeed at £19k, having been professionally welded and painted recently.
No connection etc... I just think, appropos of steel yachts, you couldn't do much better. Someone please get it bought before I succumb to temptation..

Great looking boat . The outboard rudder makes self steering and inside steering much simpler cheaper, and much tougher.