Steelboats

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sarabande said:
Brent

It's maybe because I am bit nerdish about numbers ("If you can't measure, you can't manage") that I'd like a bit more details about a few things.

AFAICS you have had 3 boats:

one ferro
one steel (34 years in your ownership)
one steel (10 years in your ownership)

Is an accurate summary please ?
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_Correct
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Now this 350,000 miles of cruising. Is that your estimate of all the miles sailed on boats into which you have had some input as a boat builder or designer ?
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Correct again, on origamiboats
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it's the accumulated time at sea of all your boats,
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Correct
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You mentioned, I think, that you have spent 11 months of every year at sea. Is that time spent on board (incl moored up) , or time spent under way ?
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11 months a year living the cruising life, doing exactly as I please, 24-7 fishing, hunting ,hiking, swimming, etc, etc, doing all the cruising life allows, what most do when cruising ,getting up any time I please, no alarm clocks, no boss to answer to ,no schedules ,the good life, the opposite of most land living.
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"daily mileage runs as as good as 90% of cruisers". That sentence without any corroborating detail opens you to challenge. What is the daily average run of sailing boats ? Why do your boats only achieve 90% of that average ? Are they that much smaller than the 'average' cruiser ? Or slower as a result of design or construction ? What data do you have on average cruisers ? What's the proportion of steel cruisers to GRP (and other materials) ? Indeed , what is the statistical population on which you are basing your figures ?
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90 % of cruisers, not 90% of average. Two very different things.
Search Silas Crosby. Search Tagish, and check the passage times they made.
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It is only fair and helpful to base your arguments on real information; however well-intentioned and based on an instinctive feeling s, guesstimates without verification do not help , and make it difficult to accept that what you are saying .
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Like verification that you have any cruising or boating experience, and verification you are not just some kid in his mother's basement?
I see no such "verification" here.
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Like many others reading your posts, I believe you have lots of hands-on experience of steel boats, and loads of good ideas about design ideas and maintenance, but you can't flash figures around in a debate unless you can provide some hard detail.
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That should answer your questions. There are ways of changing the colour of questions and answers on the screen, but I haven't figured that out, yet.
 
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GHA said:
That's so bang on the money. And bad design is probably a large part of why there are so many rust streaked hulls around, at a guess the majority of factory boats are badly designed in this respect as well- fittings bolted instead of welded, lack of access to the bilges, wood attached directly to steel... all a road to rust after a decade or 3.
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Absolutely! Any steel boat owner would be wise to ask anyone with long term experience in maintaining a steel boat, what they should do to minimize maintenance, especially in the building stage, altho anytime it is not spray foamed, the changes could be easily made.
Don't do as some do, and pay up to $175 an hour for advice from a designer who's experience is almost entirely in non steel boats. That is like hiring a highly qualified dentist to do heart surgery on you.
 
john_morris_uk said:
No witch hunt, but sailing a few miles doesn’t make you an expert on yacht design and certainly doesn’t qualify you to decide that much of the research and experiences and knowledge of naval architects is wrong.

I’ve been involved in the complete reconstruction of a couple of boats and saw the building of a steel boat. (No chines but rolled and shaped; then plasma sprayed etc but we still had rust problems within a few years).
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Yes John,I experienced the knowledge of a world famous designer, on my first boat, crossing the Pacific to New Zealand, an absolute abortion, with zero directional stability. All the boats I designed since were far better boats.
I took the design for my first design to another famous designer to have it checked out, He said a 4 inch bulwark would hold a 4 inch layer of water over my entire, deck when the boat was heeled 25 degrees. He advocated a plywood deck, a huge screwup on any steel boat. Since then, I have seen and heard incredibly stupid ideas from some very famous designers, which they would never do , had they any steel boat experience themselves.

That explains a lot of your misunderstanding John. Cobbling together a round bilge steel boat out of the many bits and pieces, each rolled ,has no comparison to an origami hull, made out of a single 8 ft by 36 ft sheet for each side of the hull. Buy a copy of Alex's video, and watch it, so you will finally have some idea of the apples and oranges you are comparing.

Buying your steel shot blasted and primed, is well worth while, even if you plan to sand blast later. It eliminates all mill scale, reducing the chance of mill scale problems later, and makes blasting much easier and quicker.
It is also much cleaner to work with.
 
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Brent Swain said:
The guy I rafted up to in the plastic boat from Connecticut ,had no such incidences,until he hit a cargo container off Costa Rica, knocking a huge hole in his hull, giving him just enough time to get in his dinghy, before she sank quickly. No problems .... up to that point in time.
The many who lost their boats in Cabo in 82 ,many with extensive ocean cruising experience , had no such problems.... up to that point in time.
The Sleavin family had no such problems ,until they were hit by a ship, killing the whole family but the mother, who drifted for days before reaching land
No problems ..... up to that point in time.
The kid who lost his boat to a whale in Mexico, and found himself in a dinghy in the middle of the night, at sea, had no problems..... up to that point in time.
The Baileys (107 days adrift in a liferaft) Calahan, and others, often in many thousands of miles of cruising, had no problems ...up to that point in time.

Nigel Calder had no problems ,before he hit the sand bar.... up to that point in time.
The Gringo had no such problems; until she was hit by the ship... up to that point in time.
In uncharted waters you are rolling the dice, very dependent on luck . Ditto containers on a dark night. Yes , one can usually be lucky ,for a very long time, but I prefer to leave as little as possible to luck. Not being as blissfully naive as you say cruisers should be, I enjoy my cruising far more, by knowing collisions wont cost me my life, or my boat .
The last time I was on the BC north coast there were daily reports of uncharted reefs. Some areas up there are blank white paper on the charts. Add night, and you say you should rely on luck, rather than a tough hull, which can take the odd hull speed collision with a rock? Sounds like bad seamanship priorities to me.
If you believe plastic boast never hit things and never break, you should go talk to the guys who fix them in a boat yard. They tell me they had a steady stream of them coming in with broken stock boat, fig leaf rudders.
I have worked in a boat yard, fixing broken plastic boats, so don't tell me it never happens . Insurance companies can be another source of "delusion cure."

The suggestion that "a cruising boat doesn't have to be tough, because it is not supposed to hit anything ,"is incredibly dense!

Reminds me of the guy who fell from the 29th floor of an apartment building.
At every floor he passed, he yelled out, " I'm OK so far!"

"As Brent knows?"
More like
"As John claims"
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Brent, You don't "know". You have an opinion. It's a very strong opinion and you try to justify it with a slack handful of cases of GRP boats being wrecked and steel boats surviving.

No-one anywhere in this thread or on these forums is disputing those incidents or your pointing out that steel is strong, but that doesn't make it a necessary and logical choice for offshore cruising boats. It's one choice and it's got some arguments in its favour, but it has some faults as well.

I do dispute your claim that GRP is as weak and dangerous as you keep suggesting. It's not as strong (in some ways) as steel, but that just means that it has advantages and disadvantages. (Same as steel) You've been shown video of a GRP boat being sailed hard into metal objects and rocks and bouncing off. You counter by pointing out some wrecked GRP boats. I note that there are examples of steel boats sinking, but that's not the point.

You continuously harp on about how "your' methods open up a life time of cruising to people who otherwise couldn't afford it. But lots of people don't want to sail around in a roughly constructed steel boat. I've not doubt you will protest vehemently and cite pictures of 'wonderful' folded metal boats but you can't have the penny and the bun. Sails, gear, bunk cushions etc to a decent standard cost money. Good gear and good sails makes boat sail faster and more efficiently. You can't escape that simple fact.

You belittle qualified and experienced naval architects (your attitude actually reduces your standing IMHO).

Despite being reminded to not speak in pejorative terms, you try and use emotionally loaded terms to describe things you don't like. You refer to plastic eggshells which is not what many GRP boats are in reality. A friend's hull was measured at being several inches thick beneath the waterline. Don't tell me that it going to split or be holed easily.

Regarding my question about running boats onto a lee shore; nowhere did I mention that the question had anything to do with whether the hull was steel or GRP. I just noticed that you seem to have done it rather a lot compared with most people and certainly compared with myself and I asked it I was just lucky. Perhaps the fact that your boats are built and sailed by sailing bums on low budgets (nothing wrong with that per se) correlates with an inability to keep out of danger? Who knows? I haven't made any such suggestion. I've merely asked the question about the number of times you and people sailing your design and build of boats have ended up aground on a lee shore.

Ultimately one makes choices according to ones means and according to what one assesses the risks to be. The vast majority (and we are talking 99.9%) of sailors choose GRP because it's low maintenance and they assess the risks of catastrophic damage to be negligible. Our own boat is (currently) GRP but we have a liferaft on an autorelease (it floats free if the boat sinks) device in case something catastrophic happens. The chances are that nothing ever will, but just in case, that's our fall back.

(Examples of being run down by a ship don't count as IMHO they just demonstrate poor seamanship. I'm sympathetic to those to whom this happens, but the sympathy valve is only slightly open. I suggest that I don't get run down by ships because we both keep a good look-out and we also have radar and AIS alarms to use as appropriate. )

Finally, mentioning boats moored or anchored in harbour being wrecked doesn't support either side in any discussion about sailors poor seamanship and putting their boats onto a lee shore.

If I won the lottery I might consider buying a metal boat. But it would probably be an Ovni. Properly designed and built of aluminium. There again, I might consider a Malo or a Sweden Yachts or a Halberg Rassey.
 
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On a (for me in this thread) serious note, there does seem to have been an awful lot of steel boat groundings. Wonder how many of those were caused by people not understanding the effect of leeway on a heavy yacht with the wind forward of the beam (could be considerable in heavy airs), not understanding or applying sufficient deviation coretion to the steering compass or some combination of both?
 
capnsensible said:
On a (for me in this thread) serious note, there does seem to have been an awful lot of steel boat groundings. Wonder how many of those were caused by people not understanding the effect of leeway on a heavy yacht with the wind forward of the beam (could be considerable in heavy airs), not understanding or applying sufficient deviation coretion to the steering compass or some combination of both?
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Oh come on! Are you seriously suggesting that while people in GRP boats understand the effects of leeway, those in steel boats don't? That seems like a very poor and unsubstantiated view. Are you suggesting that the proximity of all that steel, not only affects boat's compasses, but also the brains of their skippers? :rolleyes:
 
NormanS said:
Oh come on! Are you seriously suggesting that while people in GRP boats understand the effects of leeway, those in steel boats don't? That seems like a very poor and unsubstantiated view. Are you suggesting that the proximity of all that steel, not only affects boat's compasses, but also the brains of their skippers? :rolleyes:
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With the greatest respect, you appear to have mis understood. Inaccurate application of leeway is common. In a home built steel vessel, it could well be a significant factor. And not applied.

How many times have you corrected a ships compass for deviation and produced a deviation card? Perhaps never? You do understand about the effect of a steel hull on a magnetic compass?

For long distance cruisers, theses are important and often overlooked principles.

Perhaps you sail in local waters using simple eyeball techniques that are applicable in that situation. But to venture offshore requires more knowledge and planning. You may enjoy it.
 
capnsensible said:
With the greatest respect, you appear to have mis understood. Inaccurate application of leeway is common. In a home built steel vessel, it could well be a significant factor. And not applied.

How many times have you corrected a ships compass for deviation and produced a deviation card? Perhaps never? You do understand about the effect of a steel hull on a magnetic compass?

For long distance cruisers, theses are important and often overlooked principles.

Perhaps you sail in local waters using simple eyeball techniques that are applicable in that situation. But to venture offshore requires more knowledge and planning. You may enjoy it.
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Sorry, but I don't see why inaccurate application of leeway should be more common by those in steel boats, than those in GRP, unless you feel that people who sail in steel boats are by definition less competent? Perhaps you would care to expand your hypothesis?

For your information, I am familiar with techniques of "swinging the ship", and making and using a deviation card. Of course, it may be that "offshore sailing" has somehow changed lately, and I would happily agree that nowadays my sailing is mostly by eyeball, but that doesn't mean that my brain has atrophied. :D
 
capnsensible said:
With the greatest respect, you appear to have mis understood. Inaccurate application of leeway is common. In a home built steel vessel, it could well be a significant factor. And not applied.

How many times have you corrected a ships compass for deviation and produced a deviation card? Perhaps never? You do understand about the effect of a steel hull on a magnetic compass?

For long distance cruisers, theses are important and often overlooked principles.
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Yes, generally ignored. Most cruisers sail COG from the GPS blissfully ignorant of mag variation/deviation. After crossing have an ask around in the bar, see how many cruisers actually know what the variation is. In a bar once not a single cruiser (& me;) ) had any idea what the variation was. (something like 20° after we looked it up from memory)


Leeway is a massive failure in passage planning, why aren't you sailing down wind? ;)
 
It really is quite simple, home built steel boats are often dogs (Ive sailed one that was) and labour going to windward. Massive leeway.

These boats are built on the cheap. Lets see if ol buddy Bs Brent can tell us how he goes about correcting the compass for deviation.

So a cheap boat is sold to inexperienced sailors. Boat ends up on rocks. Of a zillion ways they may have achieved that outcome, I mention two possible ones. Particularly where a cumulation of errors may have occured.
 
GHA said:
Yes, generally ignored. Most cruisers sail COG from the GPS blissfully ignorant of mag variation/deviation. After crossing have an ask around in the bar, see how many cruisers actually know what the variation is. In a bar once not a single cruiser (& me;) ) had any idea what the variation was. (something like 20° after we looked it up from memory)


Leeway is a massive failure in passage planning, why aren't you sailing down wind? ;)
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Spot on!
 
capnsensible said:
It really is quite simple, home built steel boats are often dogs (Ive sailed one that was) and labour going to windward. Massive leeway.
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\
Deffo not always 'often' for cruising boats, sometimes but lots home builds are well designed and built & sail just fine if needing a little breeze to get going. There's some crackers out there. And some dogs...

Maybe you don't see them as they're all off the beaten track where GRP fears to tread.... ;) ;)
(keeping little coal on the fire ;) )
 
capnsensible said:
It really is quite simple, home built steel boats are often dogs (Ive sailed one that was) and labour going to windward. Massive leeway.

These boats are built on the cheap. Lets see if ol buddy Bs Brent can tell us how he goes about correcting the compass for deviation.

So a cheap boat is sold to inexperienced sailors. Boat ends up on rocks. Of a zillion ways they may have achieved that outcome, I mention two possible ones. Particularly where a cumulation of errors may have occured.
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That seems like a very elitist attitude. Is it only cheap steel boats that are sold to inexperienced sailors? Or is this true of cheap GRP boats as well, but presumably by divine guidance, they are kept clear of the rocks. Watch out, your prejudices are hanging out, and you might trip over them. :D
 
NormanS said:
That seems like a very elitist attitude. Is it only cheap steel boats that are sold to inexperienced sailors? Or is this true of cheap GRP boats as well, but presumably by divine guidance, they are kept clear of the rocks. Watch out, your prejudices are hanging out, and you might trip over them. :D
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I will bear in mind what you say. However you should understand that as far as yachts and the folk that own them are concerned, I have no predjudices at all but a substantial ammount of observations gleaned from hard won experience over a long period of time. I have no requirement to make stuff up. :encouragement:
 
GHA said:
\
Deffo not always 'often' for cruising boats, sometimes but lots home builds are well designed and built & sail just fine if needing a little breeze to get going. There's some crackers out there. And some dogs...

Maybe you don't see them as they're all off the beaten track where GRP fears to tread.... ;) ;)
(keeping little coal on the fire ;) )
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;););)

I'll ask BS to give my regards to all on Nuku Hiva!
 
capnsensible said:
It really is quite simple, home built steel boats are often dogs (Ive sailed one that was) and labour going to windward. Massive leeway.

These boats are built on the cheap. Lets see if ol buddy Bs Brent can tell us how he goes about correcting the compass for deviation.

So a cheap boat is sold to inexperienced sailors. Boat ends up on rocks. Of a zillion ways they may have achieved that outcome, I mention two possible ones. Particularly where a cumulation of errors may have occured.
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I think that Brent said somewhere that a compass was another cost saving measure and that his cheap as chips plotter tells him which way he is going.
 
NormanS said:
That seems like a very elitist attitude. Is it only cheap steel boats that are sold to inexperienced sailors? Or is this true of cheap GRP boats as well, but presumably by divine guidance, they are kept clear of the rocks. Watch out, your prejudices are hanging out, and you might trip over them. :D
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Heres a little treat for you Normy. Try finding a very readable book, 'The Calm Before The Storm' by my good friend J Duncan Gould. His story of voyaging in an elderly steel yacht across big oceans with his lovely wife Irena. I get mentioned in it a couple of times!

So best not to do conclusion jumping really. :encouragement:
 
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