Starting out sailing... Mast broke in storm Amy - any help please?

[westerly24]

The bit that honestly confuses me is that you've been out to the boat but not hauled the mast out of the water, just left it there. Quite apart from the indesirability of having a mast and rigging that youmight want to re-use at least part of left underwater, leaving it in the water risks it scraping the hull with the sharp broken section, in extremis holing the hull, and then you really are in trouble.

I also think the insurance bit is probably moot. I cannot imagine a marine insurer who couldn't point to a failure in maintenance etc when the mast just falls down. However windy it was.

Here I agree with Tranona. If you can source a replacement second hand mast, then great. But your bills won't stop there with a re-rigging. Otherwise, as much as it might pain you, the better financial option is probably to scrap this boat and look for another. The market is such that older small boats are almost being given away.

I only got to the boat last night around an hour before sunset. I had been in ill health , and secondarily waiting for calmer weather to make the journey across to the boat possible on my small tender. As it's quite tough for a new sailer getting tied on and climbing aboard in rough windy weather with choppy wavey waters. Going back today or tomorrow failing today. I expected only maybe some damage to the canopy or water in bilge , but neither of these happened.

 

[westerly24]

Is this report about your boat?

It was just an easy to read report I got made up so I could have some points to address, assesments, or things to keep in mind moving forward. Much of what's in the report is what other members have chimed in saying as possible causes and routes to move forward

 

[flaming]

I disagree with those saying scrap it and get another - scrapping boats costs money too - quite substantial amounts compared to finding a mast and putting some hours in over the winter.

As Wansy said in post #2 - ask around the local clubs and yards. The mast for a 23'er isn't a huge thing, there will be one lying around somewhere. Our club have just had a cleanout and 4 mast sections went to the scrap man, with a variety of bits to make them work. Get the wreckage out of the water and use it as a template for the replacement.

Depends if an appropriate mast can be found, and then if that mast needs any adaptation before it fits this boat. And then if that mast is too different to the current that renders the current sails unusable...

I agree that if a suitable mast can be found for free or nearly free, then that's good and probably the most cost effective option. Especially if the skills are there to do all the work to get it back on the boat without bringing in professionals.

But even if you find a donor tube a "cheap" re-rigging if you need to buy new shrouds, bottlescrews etc. Is going to wind up costing more than the boat is worth. That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done of course, but it's best to be wise to the costs.

 

[ducked]

I'm with the others who say any repair to that mast is a job for a professional. I've been a boat owner for over 20 years, and consider myself to be a fairly practical, but I wouldn't try it.

It shouldn't be too hard to source a replacement for not a lot of money. A local club may well have something that's cluttering up the yard. Getting a rigger to put it all together will cost a bit, but shouldn't be too bad. What will cost will be replacing the roller furler. You may get lucky and only need a length or two of foil, but I'd budget for a new one.

Good luck!

Talk is of course cheap, and AFAIK the mast is still underwater so its precise status is unknown, but IF I was faced with such a repair I very much doubt I would consider even attempting to involve a professional.

Apart from the probably prohibitive expense, that would be likely to involve more exposure to head shaking, teeth sucking and possibly howls of derisive laughter than flesh and blood can reasonably be expected to stand.

By the sound of it I have even less recent sailing experience than the OP, but this doesn't seem to be mostly a matter of sailing experience. It seems to be mostly a matter of punk technology (experience desirable but not essential).

Scoring an adaptable second hand mast is probably a better option, but if this fails I wouldn't rule out a DIY repair, especially as I dont think the OP's declared lack of sailing experience gives us any idea of his capabilities in this context.

 

[westerly24]

Talk is of course cheap, and AFAIK the mast is still underwater so its precise status is unknown, but IF I was faced with such a repair I very much doubt I would consider even attempting to involve a professional.

Apart from the probably prohibitive expense, that would be likely to involve more exposure to head shaking, teeth sucking and possibly howls of derisive laughter than flesh and blood can reasonably be expected to stand.

By the sound of it I have even less recent sailing experience than the OP, but this doesn't seem to be mostly a matter of sailing experience. It seems to be mostly a matter of punk technology (experience desirable but not essential).

Scoring an adaptable second hand mast is probably a better option, but if this fails I wouldn't rule out a DIY repair, especially as I dont think the OP's declared lack of sailing experience gives us any idea of his capabilities in this context.

If it can be *safely* DIY fixed at a reasonable cost of materials , labour time not applicable and growing knowledge I'll do everything in my power with help of some boating associates I'll surely take a bash. Pending assessment of course if the current mast is even salvageable. I'm into robots , mechanics , and make countless intensive projects , fix my own cars and motorbikes. Etc. I chopped top of my thumb off about a month after getting the boat in a non boat related incident, but that's just a small side quest I'm competing with. Nothing is impossible, but also some things pending damage assessment needs to be let go. I guess will know more once the mast is brought back aboard or on shore.co sidering floating the mast to shore using 3x 200litre plastic drums... Ratchet strapped to the underside and slowly towed back to shore. But that's just a crazy side thought I'm contending with at least it would keep the deck free for motoring for a while until a plan is made .

 

[westerly24]

I went to the shoreline by the boat on the first night , after a day of storm Amy , and everything looked to be riding out the storm ok. The second day must have taken its toll on her though. I have photos and videos of her riding it out. Sadly she suffered the mast down the next day.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Good luck with your endeavours. Hope you can get it sorted at low cost. Quite a few folks on here have rebuilt, refurbished old boats where the cost of repair or refurbishment is not worth it compared to the value of the boat, but still they did the work and some to a very high standard, and some even cruise afar in these boats. All the best.

 

[ducked]

But even if you find a donor tube a "cheap" re-rigging if you need to buy new shrouds, bottlescrews etc. Is going to wind up costing more than the boat is worth. That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done of course, but it's best to be wise to the costs.

Is it likely you'll need to buy new shrouds, bottle screws etc?

I'd expect most of the rigging to be undamaged, apart from the mast base and whatever failed initially, though I suppose other stuff might have got damaged/bent when the mast took a dive. I might expect the gooseneck to be especially vulnerable.

Or are you being conservative and assuming that, to play safe, everything should be replaced because something failed?

 

[LittleSister]

I think this could be sorted without engaging professional help, or only getting in a professional to do specific smaller parts of the job that require particular skills, knowledge or tools.

Despite some others comments, I think the mast may well be salvageable if not bent or buckled, by shortening, as I mentioned before.

Getting the mast etc out of the water is a pressing task, to avoid damage to the boat, or losing parts that will be expensive/time consuming to replace, or provide you with the guide dimensions for replacements. A mast for that size boat is not that heavy, especially while it is in the water. I think getting some helpers will be more useful than rigging up complicated arrangements. You are right to identify the value of ratchet straps. (Lifting the mast etc. out of the water would have been so much easier if you still had a mast on the boat! )

The main challenge of getting the mess out of the water is likely to be how it is all connected and tangled together. While I previously said about labelling all the rigging bits as you dismantle them one by one, if push comes to shove, you can disconnect or cut and wires if need be, and you'll just have to fathom out what goes where and what lengths later, that's all do-able. Note it's surprisingly hard to cut rigging wire with a saw, especially on a boat, stout wire cutters are expensive but you might be able to borrow or hire some. Where possible disconnect at the terminals to avoid the need to cut, both becasue it's a faff, and you might want to re-use the wire or know its length.

Can you confirm your boat is a Pageant (as identified in your draft report)? Knowing this might help people make comments and suggestions.

 

[flaming]

Is it likely you'll need to buy new shrouds, bottle screws etc?

I'd expect most of the rigging to be undamaged, apart from the mast base and whatever failed initially, though I suppose other stuff might have got damaged/bent when the mast took a dive. I might expect the gooseneck to be especially vulnerable.

Or are you being conservative and assuming that, to play safe, everything should be replaced because something failed?

I think it's not unlikely that some of the shrouds would need replacing. But as the mast is still underwater....

But my point was more that if you can largely re-rig, with some donor parts from the back of the boatyard, then all good. But throwing money at this is in the form of new parts is likely not the best use of money, from a purely "investment" point of view.

Put it this way, if the OP ends up faced with a bill to buy some new bits to re-rig this mast... If his goal is "small boat to start learning to sail on next season" then I think that bill is still relatively small before cutting his losses and looking for another boat is a better option.

 

[ducked]

I think this could be sorted without engaging professional help, or only getting in a professional to do specific smaller parts of the job that require particular skills, knowledge or tools.

Despite some others comments, I think the mast may well be salvageable if not bent or buckled, by shortening, as I mentioned before.

Getting the mast etc out of the water is a pressing task, to avoid damage to the boat, or losing parts that will be expensive/time consuming to replace, or provide you with the guide dimensions for replacements. A mast for that size boat is not that heavy, especially while it is in the water. I think getting some helpers will be more useful than rigging up complicated arrangements. You are right to identify the value of ratchet straps. (Lifting the mast etc. out of the water would have been so much easier if you still had a mast on the boat! )

The main challenge of getting the mess out of the water is likely to be how it is all connected and tangled together. While I previously said about labelling all the rigging bits as you dismantle them one by one, if push comes to shove, you can disconnect or cut and wires if need be, and you'll just have to fathom out what goes where and what lengths later, that's all do-able. Note it's surprisingly hard to cut rigging wire with a saw, especially on a boat, stout wire cutters are expensive but you might be able to borrow or hire some. Where possible disconnect at the terminals to avoid the need to cut, both becasue it's a faff, and you might want to re-use the wire or know its length.

Can you confirm your boat is a Pageant (as identified in your draft report)? Knowing this might help people make comments and suggestions.

I've seen a test report...er...somewhere, that found a hacksaw did pretty well for cutting rigging wire. This is good, cos even the better hacksaws are cheaper than the alternative cutting tools, and the blades are consumables, so you dont end up with useless blunted bolt cutters, for example.

If doing this, I found the bi-flex blades were much less likely to break than the standard all-hardened ones, and if they did break, I could make jigsaw blades from the bits since the blade-back was soft enough to cut a tine from.

Having said that I wouldn't cut anything if I could avoid it.

Think the Pageant is 23 ft

 

[Boathook]

I would get everything ashore as others have mentioned. Don't cut any rigging but undo the bottle screws or release the clevis pins. The old stays give the lengths for replacement ones.

Once ashore lay the mast out and put some pictures here showing the damage and sections, etc. It will be easier for us to give more advice.

Where is the forestay broken ? Seems to be quite a length hanging down so was it at the top ? Also seems to be a bit missing from the boom where it attaches to the mast.

 

[ducked]

Just one example. Seem to be a lot out there. This is using some aluminium extrusion of the same section, (which may not be available) rather than a wooden plug, which might expand when wet, though perhaps not enough to be a problem.

He's using some quite crude temporary wooden "folding wedges " to locate the tangs while he drills and screws them. I suppose improved versions of these could be permanent.

 

[KevinV]

Don't cut any rigging but undo the bottle screws or release the clevis pins. The old stays give the lengths for replacement ones.

This. A pair of good sidecutters will cut split pins, making disassembly of the tangle easier, and the chance of losing clevis pins smaller.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Realistically the boat is a write off. You can buy one for less than the cost of a mast. Even the basic stays, bottle screws and furler will add up to more than half the cost of a complete boat. The chances of finding a used mast are very small and as has been noted the current mast is probably beyond repair. Even if it is insured for all risks the payout will not cover the cost of repairs.

Correct... when I dismasted the cost of a new mast came to at least twice the cost of the boat - no way the insurance were having any of it, so the repair route was the only option...

 

[chriscallender]

I was hoping I could salvage by taking the bottom few inches off the mast and living with a shorter mast. Pending an inspection of the mast when I remove it from underwater.

That might be feasible, I've heard of such things being done before. Given the like value of the boat I'd be looking at fixing it super cheap even if it is a bit of a compromise so I feel this is on the right lines, afterwards it could be a boat for sailing on nice days in summer, not crossing the Atlantic, there's probably plenty of other reasons than the rigging that make that true anyway. As you say it depends on how the mast and furler looks when you get them recovered. Other signifcant damage in the stuff you get out the water would make this a non starter,

If you can cut a few inches off the bottom of the mast and rivet the mast foot on again the consequences might simply be that the boom ends up a slightly lower and the genoa ends up a bit closer to the deck. If its more than a few inches, the sails would probbably need modification, and the boom gooseneck moved. Not impossible either but the work builds up, and the compromises increase.

To shorten the standing rigging (pretty much certain to be needed if you shorten the mast I'd say), potentially you can cut the wires and refit swageless terminals (which still aren't cheap for a set). They have a cone inside them and clamp onto the wire by compression. If that makes the standing rigging end up too short (it all depends what sort of fittings they have already), shackles can be used to put length in again.I've seen it done, its not exactly brilliant best practice but if the goal is to make a cheap boat sail again. Make sure everything including any shackles has locking wire though .

I think you need to see it all, then a lot of head scratching to decide what is possible and come up with a plan that makes sense and fits the budget. I think your shortening idea is worth keeping in mind anyway.

 

[LittleSister]

I've seen a test report...er...somewhere, that found a hacksaw did pretty well for cutting rigging wire.

I think it works OK if you have some sort of vice or jig that supports the wire both sides of your cut and keeps it under tension. Otherwise the saw skids all over the place as the wire flexes, and stainless steel can be tough to get through.

Trying to do that with unsupported wire, on your knees on a narrow rolling side deck, leaning over at an awkward angle, and perhaps water splashing about and dampening your, er, enthusiasm, is a whole other game of soldiers!

Definitely use the best new saw blades you can get.

I agree, as I said before, best to avoid cutting and disconnect at the fittings wherever possible.

 

[Tamar]

If it can be *safely* DIY fixed at a reasonable cost of materials , labour time not applicable and growing knowledge I'll do everything in my power with help of some boating associates I'll surely take a bash. Pending assessment of course if the current mast is even salvageable. I'm into robots , mechanics , and make countless intensive projects , fix my own cars and motorbikes. Etc. I chopped top of my thumb off about a month after getting the boat in a non boat related incident, but that's just a small side quest I'm competing with. Nothing is impossible, but also some things pending damage assessment needs to be let go. I guess will know more once the mast is brought back aboard or on shore.co sidering floating the mast to shore using 3x 200litre plastic drums... Ratchet strapped to the underside and slowly towed back to shore. But that's just a crazy side thought I'm contending with at least it would keep the deck free for motoring for a while until a plan is made .

Good luck with getting it fixed. Could you use the boat to get the mast ashore?

 

[Wansworth]

Added a section of pitch pine of about a meter with additional two feet fashioned to slide up inside alloy extrusión using epoxy .Was quite satisfactory and lasted for several years until boat was wreaked in a storm ..If you furnish you whereabouts I am convinced thereareforum members who whole be pleased to help.

 

[westerly24]

I think it works OK if you have some sort of vice or jig that supports the wire both sides of your cut and keeps it under tension. Otherwise the saw skids all over the place as the wire flexes, and stainless steel can be tough to get through.

Trying to do that with unsupported wire, on your knees on a narrow rolling side deck, leaning over at an awkward angle, and perhaps water splashing about and dampening your, er, enthusiasm, is a whole other game of soldiers!

Definitely use the best new saw blades you can get.

I agree, as I said before, best to avoid cutting and disconnect at the fittings wherever possible.

Would good quality 2 or 3 foot bolt cutters be able to cut the stainless steel? If it came to the point of needing to do this