Starting a new debate ??

[Guest]

We have had the Classic vs New EuroYot postings / threads and it seems to be a lively area ......

Now as a 'semi' classic and also Tupperware boat owner ... I seem to be in two camps here !! Actually 3 - as I won 2 GRP's and 1 wood job !

I can only relate boats development to the earlier development of cars ...... from hand-built classics to production line mass-produced models. Initially the shock factor .... Never !!!! Then the realisation that you get a cheaper boat and superficially better !! or should we say - meets the family / required specs more.

So evolution hits the boat building market ..... old cars were built like brick-built shit-houses, new cars crumple, half plastic, bumpers are cosmetic and serve no useful function ... bit like new boats really .... lighter hulls, with sandwich cores in hull as well as decks etc. etc. Many of the features designed into older boats - designed out of later models to cater for Bathing beauties wishing to get back on board etc.

So are they bad the new designs ... do they only cater for the new kids on the block ??

I am involved in developing a new boat for the Europe market - built by ex Swan / Storebro craftsmen etc. .... it bears some resemblance to the new style with scoop stern etc., but carries many design features from classics ...
A funny story about some 'smart' skipper !!!!! One boat was bought by an experienced skipper ex Olympics etc. He requested some mods to the boat in rig etc. based on his 'knowledge' ..... yard advised not to do it, but agreed. The boat is now regularly second or third in races BEHIND a standard production model !!!!!

Anyway back to my posting ..... many areas of new boats are good ideas and evolved from buyers wishes .... other ideas have disappeared from the drawing boards and might be an idea to bring back .....

What would you like to see on a boat, what do you think is the worst development to hit new boat designs etc. etc.

GO ON .... let the world know !!!!

 

[pkb]

Lets stick with the car analogy. Old cars may have been built like brick ****houses but they handled like them as well and they were most definitely not somewhere you would want to be when it all went pear shaped. Modern cars may be lighter but they are much stronger, their dynamic qualities are infinitely better, they are laden with safety features which didn't exist before, they have more powerful engines and yes they are designed to crumple - and in a shunt thank God they do. Like most people I get wistful when I look at some old vintage/veteran banger trundling down to the motorway but I'm glad I'm doing so from the interior of a modern German saloon. The debate about old style boats versus new boats is probably based on the same old conflict between romanticism and reality.

Peter

 

[Guest]

Morgan cars are uncomfortable noisy and have a l o n g l o n g waiting list. (I still miss mine) The same debate about new energy efficient houses and old drafty, mind that beam, houses. Different strokes for different folks and room for us all. n'est pas?

Pete

 

[castaway]

Its a head and heart issue. You cant fault new boats and cars for performance ergonomics and safty, but.... You walk or sail down a line of em' and you cant tell one from the other.

Im out every week in the Solent and I couldnt tell you Bav from Ben from a Jean or even dare I say it a new Moody.

Id love to sail one of these boats for a week or a weekend,, but ownership...? that another thing altogether. If I applied to much logic to the reasons for sailing Id most likley charter or stay at home.

Thats my view.. And just one thing my (Old) Moody doesnt slam when going to windward in a chop .... Then again it doesnt go that close either.. Oh well!

Nick... Moody Halberdier "Fairweather"

 

[zefender]

Covered elsewhere I think but I'm not sure that the car comparison works that well. New cars may lack the 'custom craft' of older ones, but they are a darn sight safer, more reliable and environmentally friendly than old ones. They last much longer too. Hmm.. maybe the analogy does hold true (mischievous comment).

But back to your main point. I'd like to see slightly longer keels and less flat bottomed hulls, but then I'd like the accomodation - which is probably impossible. I'd like to see variants of mass production boats but more suited to northern waters - I've never been sure about showers on the transom! I'd also like to see a boat which has really been designed to take a stack of electronics without looking like sale day at Tandy. I'd like beautiful little bits, rather than just those suited merely to function - like cleats, handholds, locker catches etc. I'd like no sharp corners at all. I'd like proper hinges, rather than IKEA ones. I'd like a galley designed by poggenpohl or at least able to do more than heat up a tub of pot noodles. I'd like to see a return in popularity of the cutter rig. I'd like to see out of sight but ready to drop anchors. I'd love to have a much quieter engine with a better protected propeller too. I'd like a place to store all the fenders, (i.e. deep lockers) rather than dangling over the transom. Fixable, 2 or 3 part washboards might be good too. I'd like a simple sensor to tell me when the boat is overloaded or unbalanced - and the effect this might have on stability. Comfortable beds and lee cloths as standard! A cockpit floor high enough, or a 'top' low enough for someone shorter than 5'8" to helm not on tiptoes (not me, but my daughter and missus). Twin diesel tanks and more water. A sea water foot pump. Something to brace your feet against when sailing. A purpose built ladder/step when not moored stern to.
Automatic bird scarers. Webcam at top of mast. Security system. Lifelines and stanchions that are strong enough to actually do what they are meant to. Compressed air hose in a logical place for inflating the dinghy. Side opening, as well as top opening, lockers under saloon seats. Imaginative interior designs. Proper places to tidy up reefing lines, sheets and halyards when underway. Little compartments in the cockpit for sunglasses, sunscreen, books etc. Proper holders for drinks. Mast steps as standard plus additional track for storm sail. Decent switch for shower pump (copyright TCM). Safety notices i.e. gas, seacocks etc geared to the country of supply, not just German and English. A big LCD screen in the saloon, viewable from the cockpit, giving me data from the instruments, a 'you are here' chart view and DVDs/TV too.

And here's the rub - all at a reasonably affordable price...

Thank you Father Christmas....here's a mince pie...

 

[Celena]

The car analogy is rubbish! If a car breaks badly you get towed away and get a taxi home. If a boat breaks badly it's likely to sink and you're likely to drown!

 

[pkb]

Absolutely. Its all about tolerance.

Peter

 

[heerenleed]

escalators

The worst thing on a boat (IMHO) is the scoop-retrousse or whatever you wish to call today's fashion in sterns.

I recently read the most interesting article in a German magazine about this. The author's comments on these sterns: ever seen a professional vessel with a retrousse stern? There must be a reason for this... Or what about: yes, but it increases speed, lengthening the water line without increasng the weight at the stern...ah... then why did you install your BBQ, the liferaft, the radar post, the wind generator over there?

He then went on and on this way. Personally (not liking anything but a positive stern) I loved every word. Another nice one: easy stepping onto the pontoon? What about fending off. Did you ever see an undamaged stern this shape? They even brought dedicated fenders for permanent installation onto the market. He ended his article explaining that apart from all the tecnical downsides he hated the sight of them.

But the very best one came from my English friend Teresa (she and her husband Ray now own our former Nicholson 35) When we visited the Amsterdam Boat show together we stopped at the Hunter exhibition. Looking at all the scoops. all with a large number of steps moulded in, Teresa said:"next step is bound to be an escalator"

We all laughed our socks off.

The problem is: in normal conditions we are forced to look at all those ugly sterns. They simply are faster most of the time. And in the (rare) conditions WE are faster, we have no time to pay any attention anyway. But then, there might not be any around to look at.

oh, well............

Happy saililng


Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[nicho]

I'm not getting involved in this subject again, or I'll be told off for swearing a second time!

 

[Mirelle]

well, OK then.

Dislikes:

Cockpit area:

Wheel steering, because it is often unreliable and lacks feel, high cockpits, because they make you feel remote and/or exposed and the accelerations are greater, wide cockpits, because you can be thrown across them and you cannot easily brace your fee on one side, primary winches not workable from helm position, because they make singlehanded sailing very hard, large cockpit lockers, because everything ends up in a hurrah's nest at the bottom, cockpit lockers with weak or inadequate hinges and catches, because they are dangerous, cockpit tables, because this is a boat.

Stern

Any flat wide stern, becuase it will slam any stern ending in a sharp edge because that can be bashed, swim platforms because they don't suit the British climate and because they encompass the two defects already listed.

Side decks

Narrow, encumbered and heavily cambered ones because they are awkward to get along

Anchor and mooring equipment

Footling little lockers. Silly windlasses, Toy cleats.

Rig

Roller reefing headsails because they are surprisingly hard work, cannot be dumped in a hurry, and set like a bag of guts. Swept back spreaders, because they just don't seem right. Kicking straps, because they make the boom into a lethal weapon.

Rope clutches, because in the heat of the moment someone will undo the wrong one, and because dropping all the tails down the hatch means that the hatch must be open, which is unseaworthy.

In mast furling, unless the boat is exceptionally stable

(racers only) Backstays led to winches. This was superseded in the 1930's - how much tension have you got on after gybing at 0200?

Hull form:

Fin keels, when you might clobber a sandbank

Flat floors - bilge water everywhere and slam, slam, slam....

Unbalanced hulls which gripe up to windward as soon as they start to heel and cannot be left on their own for a moment.

Black plastic windows which any selfrespecting wave will pop out.

Accomodation

Varnished cabin soles - EVEN if they have got teak and holly effect veneer on them - because they turn into skating rinks.

Locker doors opening athwartship

Longitudinal galleys, and other galleys that you cannot use at sea.

Non fire retardant foam in cushions

Cheap light fittings where you need a screwdriver to change a bulb by first undoing three tiddly screws in the overhead at 0200.

"Chart tables" that you cannot put a chart on because they have got SUCH a lovely fiddle all round them.

Too small oilskin lockers.

Insufficient personal lockers for crew

No, or no adequate, heating system.

Lack of handholds

Plumbing that was assembled before the lid went on.

Mickey mouse ball valves instead of honest seacocks

PVC covered electric wiring - a fire waiting to happen.

Navigation equipment

Mickey mouse compasses - badly located and with lighting which is impossible to fix at 0200 due to fiddly little screws (Plastimo this means YOU - go and look at any old Sestrel to see how to do it properly)

"Instruments" that don't work, espescially the plumbed together type when the CPU goes bad on you. Yes it happened to me!

Nowhere to put binoculars.

Nowhere to put pilot books.

That's enough for now!

 

[PeteMcK]

Just had one, a shunt that is

T-boned by 7 tons of 37 footer travelling at full pelt in Force 6 (100% his fault I hasten to add).
My old Moody 33 didn't crumple (much). As the surveyor was crawling around in the bowels checking for damage, I heard a stream of oaths. "Oh no - what's he found?" A head appears from the cockpit locker, "These things are bloody solid!"
Good.
I'd like no balsa cores, no foam cores, not in the deck, coachroof, and especially not the hull. I'd like substantial overengineering of the bulkheads, stiffeners, floors. Like my old boat, in fact.
The cost of this: a lot less extra weight than you'd think.
Keep it simple, stupid.

 

[nicho]

OK, I said I was not going to get involved, but looking down the list of posters on this thread, once again you've given the old timers with their "classic" boats an opportunity to bang on about the inadequacies of modern boats - for heavens sake, can't we give it a rest for a while and resurrect the usual boring subject of power boat wash?

 

[Bergman]

Re: escalators

The speed thing is a blind.

The real purpose of a sugar scoop stern is to allow a builder to take a respectable 32 footer, play with the mould and change it into a 35 footer at virtually no cost but adding 20k to the price

(thought; when did anyone last see a real sugar scoop scooping sugar?)

 

[peterk]

a silly sentimentalist...

hi, great thread!

I find myself on both sides of this debate.
For purely sentimental reasons
that nobody wants to understand in practical terms
I have been restoring my 'plastic classic'-'Tehani'(built 1961)
for the past two years.
she saved my life - so I am saving her.

Yet, apart from the way a very few of them look
I have absolutely nothing against modern boats,
- as long as they are built well.

I'd LOVE to sail one of the 'Around Alone' flyers!
they are 3 times faster and less work to singlehand than 'Tehani'

When the US Naval Academy upgraded from their beautiful old Luders yawls
they picked a modern design that was by
'complete consensus of all involved:
stronger, yet lighter,
faster on all points and more weatherly
as well as stiffer...'

'Spatz' - the 22' S&S 1/4 tonner I soloed from Cal to S.Chile in 1999
was radical for her time(1973) . Even even I thought of her as ugly,
intially, though
she became a 'characterboat' in the course of the trip to me
and I had a lot of nimble fun on/with her - I miss her sorely.

I've come around to easily agreeing that
sailing ability and fun to be had are more important than looks.

now - if I could have both.............

...peter, www.juprowa.com/kittel

 

[Jeremy_W]

Re: well, OK then.

Basically a large number of these attributes come from designing the yacht around the accommodation rather than fitting the accommodation into the yacht.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Mirelle\'s list is mine too, except..

Let's also do away with the near vertical stem, which does not damp down pitching and which makes foredecks very wet places to be when going to windward.

 

[Celena]

Re: Mirelle\'s list is mine too, except..

Not to mention chipping lumps out of it when you weigh the anchor!

 

[Footpad]

The wonderful full throated roar of a V8 Morgan is one of the attractions and the occupants are too busy picking flies off their teeth to notice the discomfort. The waiting list is much shorter now though?

 

[pkb]

Are you always so literal?