Starter key or buttons?

JumbleDuck said:
My new Nanni came as standard with a keyed panel, but I chose to have a button one instead, which is sold as a flybridge extension. Not that I can imagine many flybridge boats with 14hp engines, but there you go.

On/off is one button with a time-delay latching relay built in to operate the "stop" solenoid for ten (?) seconds after power is turned off. Preheat/start is another combined switch/relay: push in to preheat, push in further to start. It all seems needlessly complicated, as the whole thing could be done with switches and an energise-to-run solenoid. However, I think it's the way it is to work in parallel with another panel.

It has only gone wrong three times so far, in 100 hours. Quite good, by Nanni standards.
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That sounds like a route I'll not be going down then! I thought Nanni were supposed to ne good - better than Beta at least
 
mogmog2 said:
That sounds like a route I'll not be going down then! I thought Nanni were supposed to ne good - better than Beta at least
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The arrangement i described in post #9 is a much simpler and potentially more reliable system than the Nanni one that JD described.
 
mogmog2 said:
I liked the sound of yours and was going to Investigate before replying: -relay spec and sources etc.
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The relay was a Durite latching relay, make sure it's rated at enough amps. There are a lot of choices for buttons.

So, for ignition on/off you have a momentary button and the latching relay.

A momentary button for start.

A momentary button for stop, unless you have cable stop.

If you have preheat, you could use another button. But, it'd be far nicer to use a timed preheat relay, connected to the on/off button, with a warning lamp so you can see when it stops heating. Off the shelf relay, as fitted to lots of older cars.

Lots of choice for warning lamps, 12v Planet do some nice ones that just look black until they light up.
 
PaulRainbow said:
Marine diesels are energise to stop, that way, if everything goes tits up, the engine keeps running.
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Not on mine. The fuse for the panel blew last summer, when I was motoring up Loch Sunart, and the whole thing stopped dead. I don't know why - as far as I can see, the stop solenoid should not have been activated.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Not on mine. The fuse for the panel blew last summer, when I was motoring up Loch Sunart, and the whole thing stopped dead. I don't know why - as far as I can see, the stop solenoid should not have been activated.
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Was that due to the unnecessarily complicated panel, or because the stop solenoid needs power to hold it open ?

Usually, the solenoid defaults to being open, power has to be applied to stop the engine, electric version of a stop cable. On cars, it's generally the other way around, when you turn the ignition on the stop solenoid is opened.
 
mogmog2 said:
That sounds like a route I'll not be going down then! I thought Nanni were supposed to ne good - better than Beta at least
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The mechanics seem fine and I haven't any mention of the heat exchanger problems which seem to plague Beta. In every other respect, a disaster and I am seriously thinking about replacing it. My old engine needed replaced, but I really, really wish I had just dropped in another 1GM10.
 
PaulRainbow said:
Was that due to the unnecessarily complicated panel, or because the stop solenoid needs power to hold it open ?

Usually, the solenoid defaults to being open, power has to be applied to stop the engine, electric version of a stop cable. On cars, it's generally the other way around, when you turn the ignition on the stop solenoid is opened.
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I think the "stop" circuit is separate from the panel circuit and triggered, for ten seconds, when the panel goes from "on" to "off". It seems quite unnecessarily complicated.
 
PaulRainbow said:
Button panels are very easy to build. Momentary button wired to a latching relay for the "ignition". Push for on, the relay latches and supplies power to the warning lamps, buzzers and the starter switch. Push for off, everything goes off, simples.

Momentary button for the starter.

If it has pre-heat, either a 3rd momentary button or a times relay (kind of thing fitted to old Peugeot etc).

The buttons can be waterproof, the rest can be out of the way. There isn't realy much more to go wrong than with a standard panel and you don't have to pay £200 for a Volvo key switch that's failed. Buttons an relay readily available for peanuts.
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I have the opposite problem to RichardS on my Panel B panel: the key has lost its retention mechanism and so falls into the cockpit while the engine's on in a serious swell. Potentially dangerous. I love the OP's idea of replacing it with a fat 'start' button, and if I wanted I could always put in a second button for the pre-heater - or your better idea of a timed relay.

Is the idea that once the timed relay for the pre-heater automatically connects the starter circuit on completion, or that it delivers a sec or two of timer (which you could do yourself with a pre-heater button) or what? I've probably missed the joke.

I'm fed up with the whole panel. I have stripped the rev counter to repair the LCD display which has a common problem where the silicone seal degrades and creates spurious conduction paths, forcing the display to appear blank. I couldn't make it work so I have no record of engine hours. The damned tiny bulbs behind the tachometer burst and I stripped the thing to replace them - but with a white rather than discreet red one by mistake. But the panel is ludicrously expensive, as are all parts for it.
 
KellysEye said:
Cars with a button start are the ones that are stolen most.
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I'm not sure, but currently, cars with push button ignition are (a) new and therefore more valuable and (b) higher end cars and therefore more valuable.

From my conversation with Beta at the boat show and my own experience of old ignition key switches (I could start my Midget with a screwdriver), I know that the security feature of a boat key is illusory.

Your actual security is that someone would have to break in first, to gain access to the battery isolator switch.
 
Paul Rainbow: can I ask how that timed relay idea for the glow plugs works? Ie how long I should configure it to heat the plugs and then whether it should automatically trigger the starter or whether it just provides a window of time for the user to press the start button? As the existing Yanmar Panel B idea has a separate (left) key position from the (turn right) start position, what would be the advantage of it compared to just having a separate glow switch? I suspect I am missing something known to diesel engineers.

Clearly all buttons and relays should be rated to at least 10A or whatever's being pulled by the motor. [Edit silly comment:] (obviously if I choose to use a button to power a relay I don't need a high-current button.)
 
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BelleSerene said:
Clearly all buttons and relays should be rated to at least 10A or whatever's being pulled by the motor. [Edit silly comment:] (obviously if I choose to use a button to power a relay I don't need a high-current button.)
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I've just seen that the Beta relay is a 28RA rated at 40A
 
BelleSerene said:
Is the idea that once the timed relay for the pre-heater automatically connects the starter circuit on completion, or that it delivers a sec or two of timer (which you could do yourself with a pre-heater button) or what? I've probably missed the joke.
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Preheat relay closes for a set time, then goes off, the light goes off too. You have to manually press the starter button.

You can also add a buzzer. Connect the positive to each warning light positive, via a diode. Connect the negative to a normally closed relay. Connect the relay coil to the output of the glow plug relay. Whilst the preheat relay is closed, the buzzer cannot sound because it has no negative, when preheating ceases the buzzer comes on and the light goes out.

Edit : If wiring a buzzer, as above, be sure to use a relay that has no post start heating (some relays will continue to heat for about 10 seconds after the light goes out).

This is a typical off the shelf relay that has no post heat https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CARGO-GL...005496&hash=item2c98441e53:g:3coAAOSwPYZU~uzC

It's best not to use a relay with post heat.
 
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BelleSerene said:
Paul Rainbow: can I ask how that timed relay idea for the glow plugs works? Ie how long I should configure it to heat the plugs and then whether it should automatically trigger the starter or whether it just provides a window of time for the user to press the start button? As the existing Yanmar Panel B idea has a separate (left) key position from the (turn right) start position, what would be the advantage of it compared to just having a separate glow switch? I suspect I am missing something known to diesel engineers.
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Mostly covered in #36

It's only advantage is that you don't h ave to sit with your finger on the button counting :)

If you use an off the shelf relay there is no option to adjust the timing.
 
mogmog2 said:
That sounds like a route I'll not be going down then! I thought Nanni were supposed to ne good - better than Beta at least
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The usual forum botheration.
The noisiest bloke on a thread says stuff like that and in the end everyone just says "errr right" and lets them waffle on.
JumbleDuck bought his Nanni partly on the strength of people mumbling about Beta engines and their own "much better" alternatives.

They are engines. There is an owner/idiot/ savant/ interface; there will be problems. However, if I had to stick my neck out, I would say that most Beta owners would have another, like a shot.

Nearly forgot, quite happy with my key switch, came standard, worked ok for 12 years so far.
 
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