Starlight 39 or Sigma 38?

[lpdsn]

Where's the mast gone?

Weren't they built by that motor boat company in Plymouth? Clearly it took the first one or two to get the detail right. That one clearly hasn't been raced, so there's a clear advantage to selling one without a mast, providing the surveyor doesn't notice.

 

[sighmoon]

Where's the mast gone?

Regards
Donald

You're right. I found the picture on an ad for a 38, but it's a 41. Three foot of extra boat that the broker doesn't know about going in Greece.

I stand corrected.

 

[lw395]

I was advised that a Sigma would be hard work sailing with just two.

You might make some changes to suit short handed, such as roller genoa, maybe not No1 size, a few changes to deck gear etc.
It might be hard to sail one to its best two up, but probably easy to keep up with the Starlight in most conditions.
Racing boats with powerful winches and good gear that works properly are often less effort than 'cruising' boats with too-small winches, blocks etc.
They may or may not also be less physical to helm. A big wheel and decent rudder that lets SWMBO steer easily, leaving me free to do any 'hard work' made a bigger boat easier than our previous boat.

OTOH a racing boat with gear laid out to work well with a crew of 10 can require a crew of two to be in several places at once....
Depends what you want to do.

 

[westhinder]

You might make some changes to suit short handed, such as roller genoa, maybe not No1 size, a few changes to deck gear etc.
It might be hard to sail one to its best two up, but probably easy to keep up with the Starlight in most conditions.
Racing boats with powerful winches and good gear that works properly are often less effort than 'cruising' boats with too-small winches, blocks etc.
They may or may not also be less physical to helm. A big wheel and decent rudder that lets SWMBO steer easily, leaving me free to do any 'hard work' made a bigger boat easier than our previous boat.

OTOH a racing boat with gear laid out to work well with a crew of 10 can require a crew of two to be in several places at once....
Depends what you want to do.

Your comment on cruising boats with inadequate deck gear may be true in general, but in my experience it does not apply to the Starlight.
I have never sailed side by side with a Sigma 38, so I can't comment on any speed differential.
I can say that a friend of mine with 30 years racing experience and a career with a yacht builder is so enthusiastic about the way our Starlight sails and steers that he is now considering a 35.
Judging by the pictures in this thread I have no reason to regret my choice, but then I am a cruising man who likes to sail well and only occasionally races.

 

[doris]

A Sigma 38 is one of the most timeless one design cruiser racers ever built. David Thomas at his absolute best but they were built to a price . If you wish to seriously compete in Jog, get the Sigma.
You wish to cruise in a truly delightful quick cruiser get the Starlight. It's one of Stephen Jones' great creations but it doesn't race. The only time I can remember a Starlight racing with any success was a 35 in the two handed fleet. I very much doubt it would feature today.
Both are brilliant boats and do not believe all the naysayers who thinks all Sigmas are knackered, that's total tosh.

 

[Quandary]

My answers on this thread only refer to the Sigma 38 because I owned one for 12 years, my only experience of the Starlight was knowing some one who owed one and used to do some passage races. We bought the 38 when our racing crew dispersed and we decided to sell our 33 and do more cruising.
You do not need ten crew to race a 38, eight Scots or six or seven well fed Englishmen will be enough weight and they will all have something useful to do. In the latter years we did a lot of white sail at events like West highland Week where we managed with four or five but really missed the extra weight on the weather rail to windward. Most of the cruising was two of us and the dog, the forecabin made an excellent kennel/ sail store.
when two up in a blow my wife steered and I trimmed ( or just dumped the main when she screamed.
One of the most memorable passages two up plus the dog I recall was the first time we went up Loch Ness. We left Fort Augustus with about 22-24 kts directly up the chuff, I poled out the genny and strapped the pole down tight, put a reef in the main (despite going dead down wind) and later rigged a heavy preventer to the end of the boom. The wind increased almost imperceptably and fast steep little close spaced waves started to build, by the time we passed Drumnadochit the wind had reached 38 kts and we were surfing with our bum in the air at around 14, the wife wanted to bite her nails but could not let go off the wheel. As we closed the Northern exit the breeze was over 40 kts but still really steady as were we until we decided that it might be foolish to attempt a curving narrow unfamiliar passage at that speed, getting the sail down and everything off her was a frenetic struggle and the dog went below and stayed there. Rounding the corner into Loch Dochfour we met the Jacobite *******ss, a trip boat who does not slow or give way to anyone, so we were glad we had not risked it, once round the corner and behind the trees the wind was back down to well below 20 kts.
Our Sigma 33 was a racer that we cruised occasionally, the 38 was bought as a cruiser that we sometimes raced, now it is enjoying life as a pure cruiser, used by three generations of a family, never asked to expose her keel to anyone.

 

[Thomas Hawson]

My answers on this thread only refer to the Sigma 38 because I owned one for 12 years, my only experience of the Starlight was knowing some one who owed one and used to do some passage races. We bought the 38 when our racing crew dispersed and we decided to sell our 33 and do more cruising.
You do not need ten crew to race a 38, eight Scots or six or seven well fed Englishmen will be enough weight and they will all have something useful to do. In the latter years we did a lot of white sail at events like West highland Week where we managed with four or five but really missed the extra weight on the weather rail to windward. Most of the cruising was two of us and the dog, the forecabin made an excellent kennel/ sail store.
when two up in a blow my wife steered and I trimmed ( or just dumped the main when she screamed.
One of the most memorable passages two up plus the dog I recall was the first time we went up Loch Ness. We left Fort Augustus with about 22-24 kts directly up the chuff, I poled out the genny and strapped the pole down tight, put a reef in the main (despite going dead down wind) and later rigged a heavy preventer to the end of the boom. The wind increased almost imperceptably and fast steep little close spaced waves started to build, by the time we passed Drumnadochit the wind had reached 38 kts and we were surfing with our bum in the air at around 14, the wife wanted to bite her nails but could not let go off the wheel. As we closed the Northern exit the breeze was over 40 kts but still really steady as were we until we decided that it might be foolish to attempt a curving narrow unfamiliar passage at that speed, getting the sail down and everything off her was a frenetic struggle and the dog went below and stayed there. Rounding the corner into Loch Dochfour we met the Jacobite *******ss, a trip boat who does not slow or give way to anyone, so we were glad we had not risked it, once round the corner and behind the trees the wind was back down to well below 20 kts.
Our Sigma 33 was a racer that we cruised occasionally, the 38 was bought as a cruiser that we sometimes raced, now it is enjoying life as a pure cruiser, used by three generations of a family, never asked to expose her keel to anyone.

We bought a sigma 38 ood now had her a year. We plan to family cruise. Last summer we spent 5 weeks afloat from newcastle to norway back to west coast of scotland via shetland calidonian canel. My wife and i and two teenage kids. We had a ball after our saddler 29 she is like a palace. This year we are signed up for the west highland yachting week and will cruise the west coast a little further our to hebradies i suspect in considerable more confidence and comfort than we could in our sadler 29. Over the north sea beating into wind a bit we were happy ro use the running back stays to stablise the mast when it was rough but i dont use them much unless we are bored or need that little extra in to wind to round a headland. We were lucky to have a fabulous survay with remedial work done to stanchon points and matrix tickity boo and relatively new engine. We wanted a boat we did not have to replace for a while and could confidently get us anywhere we choose, planning to go to iceland next year and fitting a windvain this hopefully. As for starlet we looked at them and the fit out was not much different and the sigmas pilot births make great storage fitted ours with fiddles and nets above. The price and availability was everything for us and any extra work to make the sigma a cruiser is on my sholders and hands i make a and fit all that. Made my own hdpe holding tank for norway trip and fitted new cockpit woodwork decking. So far the sigma is fabulous. I also sail her single handed and she is solid, into wind its very handy to have her and she is stable with deep keel and feels more like our old folkboat. She sails fast with little canvas up and makes it lighter on my own. I think the price and her ability to race is attractive to us.

 

[papaver19]

Or a Westerly Typhoon, if you can find one. Fast and physical, like sailing a big dinghy, IRC rating close to the Sigma (0.950) and a lot nicer down below IMHO. I am biased, as I have one.

 

[Birdseye]

Just a little (currently theoretical) question......

For coastal day and weekend sailing, cruising further afield (Brittany, Ireland, Baltic, med), and for JOG racing (maybe 2-handed) which of these boats would we all go for and why?

I think the Sigma will be a little faster, but Starlight more comfortable and maybe easier to handle (no runners, designed more as a cruiser). The Sigmas are renowned as great boats though!

Just to start a little debate!

Cant comment on the Sigma but I had a Starlight 35 for 9 years and it was a fabulous handling boat that I wouldnt hesitate to take absolutely anywhere. Lovely design, good performance and well made. If you go that route I suggest the wing keel version since that can ( with care) dry out

We were the only boat in our fleet to make the windward mark against 40 gusting 50kn and a spring tide. No breakages. The fleet included 40 foot or more French boats. It was daft to be out there but occasionally you do get caught and getting caught gave me immense confisence in the Starlight. I would describe it as a modern Contessa 32 but with half decent accommodation

 

[mrming]

+1 but you might even find that sigma 38's are getting a bit long in the tooth in competitavness against their younger models...

Regards
Donald

Not my experience having done JOG in a class with one for the last few seasons. Have a look at the results for Sigma 38 “With Alacrity” in the Inshore Series.

MyJOG

 

[jlavery]

Not my experience having done JOG in a class with one for the last few seasons. Have a look at the results for Sigma 38 “With Alacrity” in the Inshore Series.

MyJOG

I think With Alacrity is a slight outlier. She's extremely well set up and sailed by a regular, competitive crew. (Rounded the Fastnet in 2019 just ahead of us). But shows that a 38 can still be a good boat.

 

[mrming]

I think With Alacrity is a slight outlier. She's extremely well set up and sailed by a regular, competitive crew. (Rounded the Fastnet in 2019 just ahead of us). But shows that a 38 can still be a good boat.

To be successful in JOG the boat has to be well set up and sailed by a good crew. Once a good boat, always a good boat is generally the rule. Fashion moves on and wealthy owners buy new toys, but if a boat did well in the past, it can usually do well again imo. There are of course exceptions, but there are so many more examples of older designs that compete well on IRC. I sail on one myself.

 

[Seven Spades]

If you are into JOG racing the Starlight is not going to win any windward legs. Both the Sigma 38 and Swan 38 will leave a Stsarlight 39 behind. Downwind the the Starlight will beat them both. A Starlight 39 is an unbelievable safe and re-assuring boat to sail it is also very comfortable. The down side compared to modern boats is small tankage and the mainsheet in the cockpit is a hazard to be aware of. I would not hesitate to buy another if I could find a nice enough example when I have finished with my current vessel.

 

[Bav32]

Thanks for the input everyone! The Sigma is cheaper but is likely to need more of a refit hence the price difference isn't as large as one might think.

The Starlight has a very high bridge deck which I don't like as you are either exposed when entering cabin, or trying to squeeze between the deck and the sprayhood. Also it means the steps down into the cabin are long and steep.

Anyone have experience of the different keel options on the Starlight?

The Sigma rates 0.982 and Starlights seem to rate about 0.950 +/- a bit, so is there that much speed difference?

That's a lot of click points. Most thinking says about 4 secs per hour per point, so 30 points is about 2 mins an hour. That's a lot!