Standing Rigging 'swollen swage fittings'

I reckon these are the measurements that thye were using . These are for a Wireteknik swaging machine but I do not know what Jeanneau used when they made up the rigging. Without a baseline measurement then using a guide from another machine is pretty meaningless . Also dyform might suffer less crushing as it is denser and stronger than 19 strand. I will give Sta-Lok a call...
 
Bilgediver said:
This partly answers my question however Is your Dyform Carbon steel? A magnet may help confirming this. Normally stainless is used on a yacht so why is there corrosion?
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Dyfrom is stainless however stainless is not rust proof and will corrode if there is insufficient oxygen supply - such as buried in a swage fitting but wet
 
jimbo said:
I've been trawling the net and seems 8-12 years and 25000nm is a typical lifespan - mine is 9 years and 20000+ nm so a little disappointing but not wildly outside the range. I know there are boats that havent changed their rigging for 20 years or more but that probably invalidates their insurance amogst other issues. The swages are look fine to my unskilled eye and have not been picked up in any of the previous rig surveys as a problem. I am a little sceptical of the rather negative survey tbh.
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It only invalidates insureance if some over efficious surveyor makes reference to it. Many insurance Co's don't actually state you must change at x yrs ... but those that do have used over-efficious Surveyors statements.

Its all well and good on a race boat - which will not need surveyor to tell them to replace, but on average cruise boat ... sorry.
 
There can only be corrosion inside a swage if there is moisture there.
But a properly made (and 2000 miles and 9 years would suggest they are well made), then there is no space in a swage for moisture.
The swaging effectively welds all the wire and surrounding swage into one homogeneous lump.
 
jimbo said:
Dyfrom is stainless however stainless is not rust proof and will corrode if there is insufficient oxygen supply - such as buried in a swage fitting but wet
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There are millions of swaged rigging wires around the world. If water was able to get in them and corrode there would be major problems in the yachting industry. The fact is there are not.

Swaging involves very high compressive forces that seal any gaps and crevices. The same techniques are used in many other industries where lifetimes may be considerably greater than on yachts. Theirs do not corrode in nine years either.

The question to be asked is whether sufficient force could be generated by crevice corrosion from minute volumes of water, assuming they could get in, to deform a work hardened swage with a wall thickness of a few millimetres. I think not.
 
ean_p said:
It would be interesting to learn where the surveyor obtained the specific data for the specific make of terminal as the finished size is surely a function of the original size and the die that made the swage. I would be inclined to contact a swage terminal manufacturer and ask for some guidence on particular modes of failure indicators.
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You might also have a wander around with a micrometre / calliper and have a quick measure of the swages on other Jeanneau yachts .....
 
jimbo said:
I have just had a rigging check on my 9 year old Jeanneau with Dyform rigging and the surveyor flagged up an issue with the swage fittings having swelled slightly (19.75mm at their narrowest point rather than the recommended max 18.75mm) and this was an indicator of corrosion inside the swage fitting (rust taking up more space than clean steel) - and the rig needs replacing. Does anyone know where I can find some data on what the max tolerances are for this? I cannot find anything about this 'swelling' issue on-line, any information about it would be appreciated. There were other issues as well which point to the rig needing replacing but this 'swollen' swage fitting was a new one to me.
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Are the 'bulging' swages at the top or the bottom of the wires? If they are at the top I would dispute the surveyors findings. Water would drain out on its own accord. Corrosion well away from seawater is less likely. The internal corrosion of swages would be more likely at the bottom of the wire.
My boat was rigged in 2013. Over 36,000nm on her in that period. Rigged in 12mm wire. Regularly checked by me. I plan to replace the rigging next year when we will have about 43,000nm on her. Bog standard 1x19 wire apart from the babystay that rigged in dyform as its 30% stronger. We will replace the rigging with Sta lok fittings at ££££ money but worth it in my view
 
Update - Have spoken to Sta-Lok who put me in touch with Wireteknik in Sweden (swaging machine manufacturers) as they are the experts on the dimensions after swaging. They confirmed that it is extremely unlikely that water had got down into the swage fittings themselves - the wires inside are so compressed they are like a solid block (as Vyv said). He also said he had never heard of a swage fitting bulging or swelling as a result of corrosion and it is likely that they were like that from when the boat was new. This could have been as a result of a different machine being used from theirs (I dont know as the boat's rigging was supplied with swage fittings already attached - I've checked the commissioning photos) or it was swaged incorrectly. The dimensions for Dyform rigging would be slightly larger than 19 strand and would be at the top of their tolerances (19.05mm) but 19.75mm was way too much if it was done with one of their machines. Anyway, 9 years and 20000+ miles was getting towards the end of their life anyway so he recommended to replace regardless.
 
Motor_Sailor said:
There can only be corrosion inside a swage if there is moisture there.
But a properly made (and 2000 miles and 9 years would suggest they are well made), then there is no space in a swage for moisture.
The swaging effectively welds all the wire and surrounding swage into one homogeneous lump.
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That exactly what the guy from Wireteknik said! Please see my later post
 
jimbo said:
Update - Have spoken to Sta-Lok who put me in touch with Wireteknik in Sweden (swaging machine manufacturers) as they are the experts on the dimensions after swaging. They confirmed that it is extremely unlikely that water had got down into the swage fittings themselves - the wires inside are so compressed they are like a solid block (as Vyv said). He also said he had never heard of a swage fitting bulging or swelling as a result of corrosion and it is likely that they were like that from when the boat was new. This could have been as a result of a different machine being used from theirs (I dont know as the boat's rigging was supplied with swage fittings already attached - I've checked the commissioning photos) or it was swaged incorrectly. The dimensions for Dyform rigging would be slightly larger than 19 strand and would be at the top of their tolerances (19.05mm) but 19.75mm was way too much if it was done with one of their machines. Anyway, 9 years and 20000+ miles was getting towards the end of their life anyway so he recommended to replace regardless.
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I don't agree that 20,000nm and 9 years is a reason to change dyform wire. It's 30% stronger than 1x19 wire. 9 years is not a lot for rigging. My boat had rigging at over 30 years old when I rerigged the mizzen mast a couple of years ago.
It sound like you have a bum rigger. Find another good rigger and he may well tell you the rig is in good condition and doesn't need doing. 12 months inspections or 6 monthly if you are keen can show up the start of swage fitting failure. Wire never fails apart from around swaged fittings where a strand breaking will be the first sign of a problem or dark external corrosion on a swage fitting which is a sign of a crack is forming. These are easy to spot with a good magnifying glass
 
I have just renewed my rigging at 11 years & see little point in risking £000's of mast, sails bits of the boat & most importantly ME, for £3,100 inc £1700. for a new furler ( which did not need replacing, but I wanted an adjustable one, so I can alter mast rake)
 
Daydream believer said:
I have just renewed my rigging at 11 years & see little point in risking £000's of mast, sails bits of the boat & most importantly ME, for £3,100 inc £1700. for a new furler ( which did not need replacing, but I wanted an adjustable one, so I can alter mast rake)
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We replaced the rigging in 2013. We had invoices for replacement babystay and back stay from the previous owner only two years prior to when we purchased the boat. Out of the 7 stays holding the mast up they were all in good condition accept the babystay and backstay that had a broken strand each.
Regularl inspection is safer than assuming because its new it will be fine.
 
geem said:
We replaced the rigging in 2013. We had invoices for replacement babystay and back stay from the previous owner only two years prior to when we purchased the boat. Out of the 7 stays holding the mast up they were all in good condition accept the babystay and backstay that had a broken strand each.
Regularl inspection is safer than assuming because its new it will be fine.
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So you do not think that brand new, installed by a respected rigger, is better than old, checked by "someone"
 
Daydream believer said:
So you do not think that brand new, installed by a respected rigger, is better than old, checked by "someone"
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Definitely not. Have you come across the 'bathtub curve'? It plots failure frequency in just about everything. Lots in brand new, gradually reducing to a straight line, then increasing at end of life to a high peak.

Modern maintenance is condition based, using the best inspection techniques available. Time based maintenance is reserved for very specific equipment (e.g. oil and filter changes, where there is good justification).
 
I don't know which Jeanneau boat the OP has, and several performance models seem to have been supplied with dyform rigging, but I suggest contacting Jeanneau as only they are likely to know what make of swage fittings they used, and what the finished swage diameters were for each size of wire. They may not have been the same as the diameters quoted by Wiretechnik, and Jeanneau might have used a different machine.

If no better information can be obtained, then I suggest taking just one of the wires where the swages are claimed to be swollen and cutting a swage apart to see if it is internally corroded. If all is well re-use the wire by fitting an extra long Sta-Loc fitting to make up the lost length.
 
vyv_cox said:
Modern maintenance is condition based, using the best inspection techniques available.
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So that is some unqualified geezer with no knowledge of rigging, other than " Well I have got some" looking at it & saying " Yup. Looks Ok to me" - is it?

Not knowing the process involved, from what I have read on this forum, some years ago, I would suggest that "the best inspection techniques available" might cost as much as just buying new rigging in the first place.
But to each his own & I have changed mine.
If you & others, want to use older rigging, that is your choice & you are entitled to make it.
Many do with no issues.
 
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Refueler said:
I can only quote an NDT guy who worked for me ....

If in Doubt - Throw it Out ...

(NDT = Non Destrictive Testing)

For what its worth - we were never keen on wires and fastenings .... impossible to be 100% sure of internal condition.
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What would constitute doubt? Age? A detailed visual inspection could suggest the rigging is in perfect condition. How far do you go? Take all the tangs off the mast to check for corrosion under them? In my experience there is lots of hidden corrosion under stainless steel on a mast that would be more of a concern on an older boat than rigging that is in good visual condition, but it their are other factors. Is the particular boat conservatively rigged? A friend has a boat of overall same length as mine. He did an Atlantic circuit on her. Had a bad storm on the way home. Cockpit filled up multiple times. Storm sails and lying on the saloon floor. That boat is rigged in 8mm wire. Mine is rigged in 12mm wire. Which one would be more of a concern assuming both the same age?
I might be tempted to change the rig at 10 years if mine was lightly rigged but it's not. The rig is strong and was designed like that from new. The mast is all welded. No structural rivets
 
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