Stackpack: I'm not at all convinced.

[JumbleDuck]

I am not saying that people have NOT sailed in F8, 9 10 or 11 , only that there is a difference between a few gusts & the real thing.

Yes indeed. In fact, I think I read that the Beaufort scale is defined as averages, so that F6 can contain lulls of less than 22kt and gusts of more than 27kt. The scale is a definition of sea state as much as of wind, and even prolonged gusts don't add much to the waves.

That said, it's fairly common to discuss gusts on the Beaufort Scale, and 56kt+ is by no means impossible.

 

[Seajet]

Thread drift!!
But one has to accept that there is a lot of difference between a few gusts and a full on F8 for instance. People will say that they have been sailing in F8 but in many cases there have only been a few gusts above 34kts which is a lot different to a full blown F8. I would also imagine that sea state in some areas ( Possibly including the Clyde) are far flatter than open seas where the waves have had a couple of hundred miles to build up. I know that F7 in the Thames estuary is perfectly sailable. It is a lot easier than F7 off the north Brittainy coast especially with a few tide rips thrown in for luck.
I am not saying that people have NOT sailed in F8, 9 10 or 11 , only that there is a difference between a few gusts & the real thing.

Just to clarify,

what my boat, crew John Radford ( we'd already covered a few 1,000 miles together ) and Silent Running went through was not ' a few gusts ' - we ended up in the eastern Solent on the wrong end of a constant true F7, wearing two reefs and the storm jib ( only time I've used it ) - when the 55 knot squalls hit they were not ' gusts ' but prolonged squalls, lasting 20 minutes or so; we let the sheets fly and huddled to windward, I was surprised she still made significant progress forward; I put this down largely to the aerofoil section of the mast - nothing fancy, Bowman 3827 section.

One important thing to note is that waterproofs were much poorer in those days and John almost shut down with hypothermia - so now I always use Ocean grade kit.

I agree we would have been poorer placed further offshore, but the Solent is not the picnic some northeners may suggest; we were seriously clobbered by big waves between the forts, with the cockpit filled - I could and maybe should have removed the well plug to give the world's largest cockpit drain - but that would have incurred drag and she sprang up and got going anyway.

It was the combination of smooth aerodynamics on top, slippery hull shape and good keel shape / ballast ratio which saved us; a late chum who'd owned a Hurley 22 ( and was also ex- National Champion on the Enterprise class so knew how to sail ) was astonished when we beat him home from Buckler's Hard to Chichester by a margin of hours when he had his new immaculate Rival 34 on another sail; forever after he greeted me with " I hate that boat ! " and he wasn't altogether joking.

Remember not so long ago - and certainly when we joined our club 41+ years ago - 22' was considered medium / large, it's only the desire for inside showers etc which has driven boats ever larger; the A22 has much longer and wider bunks than the Carter 30 I mistakenly forsook her for a while - and I'm glad I did, it was a huge learning experience, mainly ' what to avoid ' !

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Just to clarify...

Sailing to windward in a sustained force 11 violent storm with the sails flogging & waves breaking right over the boat - wow! Your erfundenvunderboot gets more incredible the more we hear of it. Mine does downwind quite well on the huge windage from the stackpack & spinnaker-like sprayhood, but not so good upwind.

Pants weather in the Solent is no different to pants weather anywhere else, by the way. It's just in places like the Minch where I'm lurking at the moment it's more likely to be pantish than where you are on any given day. However, this summer has mostly been underwear free on the weather front.

 

[Seajet]

Thanks a lot Angus, that image is going to require more therapy than even the Macallan can provide.

 

[JumbleDuck]

... when the 55 knot squalls hit they were not ' gusts ' but prolonged squalls, lasting 20 minutes or so; we let the sheets fly and huddled to windward, I was surprised she still made significant progress forward ...

Oliver Lee strikes again! Squibs are still available new - has any other class of keelboat been in production almost continuously for over fifty years?

 

[Daydream believer]

Just to clarify,

and Silent Running went through was not ' a few gusts ' - we ended up in the eastern Solent on the wrong end of a constant true F7, wearing two reefs and the storm jib ( only time I've used it ) - when the 55 knot squalls hit they were not ' gusts ' but prolonged squalls, lasting 20 minutes or so;

I assume that these 55 kts gusts were properly measured using the whiskers on one's beard & not the useless dials on an "uncalibrated " wind indicator at the top of a mast

 

[Daydream believer]

Is that what you think I'm telling you?

I was trying to give you the chance to correct your obvious error.
Clearly went over your head. Never mind

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I assume that these 55 kts gusts were properly measured using the whiskers on one's beard & not the useless dials on an "uncalibrated " wind indicator at the top of a mast

Heaven's no, wor Andrew doesn't have one of those newfangled things on his erfundenvunderboot! They were invented far too recently. Remember, he's stuck in 1973, & Andrew's rule applies. Cue stories about TS Royalist...

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

This thread is going the same route as so many other threads: "My boat/anchor/equipment/sailing is better than yours".
As in the case of many other sailors I am happy with with what I have and my manner of usage works for me. If yours is different BUT it works for YOU, bully for you and I am happy for you!
WHAT is there about what to be "convinced" ?

 

[Daydream believer]

Oliver Lee strikes again! Squibs are still available new - has any other class of keelboat been in production almost continuously for over fifty years?

I am told that there will be 5 of the new Rondar ones at the nationals in August at Cowes. They are expecting over 95 boats for the event. The raffle prize this year is a new squib ( tickets based on race entries over the country one or more tickets per nominated race & loads of races qualify). Free spinnaker for every entry to the nationals

 

[NealB]

This thread is going the same route as so many other threads: "My boat/anchor/equipment/sailing is better than yours".
As in the case of many other sailors I am happy with with what I have and my manner of usage works for me. If yours is different BUT it works for YOU, bully for you and I am happy for you!
WHAT is there about what to be "convinced" ?

You seem to have misunderstood the purpose of my post.

I have merely been trying to convince myself whether I should keep the current stackpack set up on my new boat.

Many of the replies have been extremely helpful (thanks again, for those.

As you say, if other people make different choices ...... That is, of course, absolutely fine.

Love and peace to all!

 

[Daydream believer]

Love and peace to all!

If I had known that you were a jehovah's witness I would have put the the dogs in the front garden.
Would have made a change from postmen & delivery drivers !!!!!

 

[NealB]

If I had known that you were a jehovah's witness I would have put the the dogs in the front garden.
Would have made a change from postmen & delivery drivers !!!!!

Ok , let me rephrase ......

Love and peace to all, except to fans of the Monkees (great song, by the way).

Cheers!

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

I have merely been trying to convince myself whether I should keep the current stackpack set up on my new boat.

My remark was not aimed at your original posting but more at the way that the thread has developed. You asked a question in good faith while many others ask a question hoping to receive the answers that they wish to hear and that would confirm a decision that they have already taken.

You have acknowledged that you have a problem. That is usually seen as being the first step towards a solution for that problem. Many accept the situation and thinking "This does not work; I need to seek elsewhere". The real solution is to begin to understand WHY something does not work and to ask relevant questions, like: How does a stackpack work? Why is it not working as it should? Why do some battens foul on the lazyjacks? Why is a part of the sail spilling? Could it be that the lazyjacks are too far aft on the boom? Are the lazyjacks too taut? Too loose? Are they attached too high on the mast? Too low?
Such questions led me to solutions that addressed these faults and eliminated them. What matters is that the path that I followed works for me. I could easily have given up like so many others and could have concluded "Nah! Stackpacks/lazyjacks/snuffers just don't work. in fact they are the spawn of the devil!" I wanted, no, more than that I NEEDED, a solution because I mostly sail solo and anything that would make my sailing life easier - especially sail-handling - for me would be most welcome. Perhaps it is also because I am hard-headed.
Much information has been has offered here, some was useful while some was less so. There was a large number (the bulk?) that was little more than merely disparaging remarks; whether or not they they were useful is for you to decide.
The bottom line is that what matters is (1) Do need a system? (2) Does this system work? (3) If it does not, how can I make it work? I have managed to make a system (twice, on different boats) that works for me and I am happy with it. I am "convinced" that a solution may be found provided that one is determined. The engineers who worked for me would often quote me as telling them "Don't tell me why something can NOT be done; tell me instead HOW it can!" It was almost the 'religion' in my group; those who could not live with that 'creed' rarely lasted for long. On that parting note from my past working life I do, sincerely, hope that you find a system that works for you.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Pot, kettle, black springs to mind!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Such questions led me to solutions that addressed these faults and eliminated them. What matters is that the path that I followed works for me. I could easily have given up like so many others and could have concluded "Nah! Stackpacks/lazyjacks/snuffers just don't work. in fact they are the spawn of the devil!"

It sounds a bit as if you assume that there is always a happy outcome available, and that those who don't find it have just "given up". Isn't that another case of what you rightly lament; the tendency to get over defensive about our own solutions?

Some people like lazyjacks and stackpacks. That's fine. Some people go for other solutions (even singlehanded) and that's fine too.

 

[Tranona]

Some people like lazyjacks and stackpacks. That's fine. Some people go for other solutions (even singlehanded) and that's fine too.

Isn't one of the problems the fact that stackpacks/lazyjacks (and sprayhoods!) are very popular BECAUSE they do work for many people, although there is perhaps less recognition that they are not all the same and there are many variations and custom modifications to meet individual needs.

What was striking about my straw poll of 50 or so boats the other day is how much it confirmed points made in this discussion. The two biggest groups of boats that did not have stack packs were under (say) 25' and boats set up for racing. The latter (several Elans for example) have laminate sails which do not take kindly to being forced into bags and anyway have no need for the shorthanded easy sail handling many cruisers look for given the large crews that sail them.

To me it is the size of the sail and particularly foot length that is important in deciding if a stackpack might be useful. My Eventide has a boom 13' long and anything that helps control that and the large amount of canvas on top of it is worth looking at. I mentioned the stackpack for that was one of the first made by Kemps and I remember (long time ago!) the work put in to get the shape and particularly the lazyjacks right to minimise the batten catching issue. Generally worked well, but the recent replacement is a very different design as the sail is now loose footed so the track on the boom can be used to anchor the bag rather than crude channels screwed to the wooden boom. Hopefully it will also allow more control over sail shape. A bonus will be the single line reefing should run better being now outside rather than inside the bag.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

It sounds a bit as if you assume that there is always a happy outcome available, and that those who don't find it have just "given up". Isn't that another case of what you rightly lament; the tendency to get over defensive about our own solutions?

Some people like lazyjacks and stackpacks. That's fine. Some people go for other solutions (even singlehanded) and that's fine too.

What I wrote was "...I could easily have given up like so many others...". Which part that I have indicated in bold do you not understand? Why am I assuming? Did I say 'ALL the others'?

Like you yourself have put it, my position has been consistently " Some people like lazyjacks and stackpacks. That's fine. Some people go for other solutions (even singlehanded) and that's fine too."
I had also written " As in the case of many other sailors I am happy with with what I have and my manner of usage works for me. If yours is different BUT it works for YOU, bully for you and I am happy for you!" (see post #128) which is basically similar to what you wrote.
So, where do you see "the tendency to get over defensive about our own solutions" and apply it to me?

 

[TSB240]

I put up with my stack pack but as an ex racer I have to say if looking for that 0.1 of a knot I would happily remove it.

Much the same could be said for the spray hood but I have decided my partner is better with me rather than ashore as she would not tolerate going without upwind shelter.
This year we have even had to adapt our cockpit tent to use as a Bimini to give shade.
I have also had to motor (something I hate...)far more than I would like but at least this has ensured the output of ice for her G and T and cold beers for me.

It was whilst lying on my back after sampling a few (too many?..) that I imagined a different roving of the Lazy Jacks.

Finally I find the sail rises and falls back without any need for adjustment or batten unsnagging time and without half the sail flopping out. Oh and a bonus I have found that a topping lift is virtually redundant.

For the life of me I can't remember what changed but I think the stack pack will now stay. Perhaps another beer might help recall?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Isn't one of the problems the fact that stackpacks/lazyjacks (and sprayhoods!) are very popular BECAUSE they do work for many people, although there is perhaps less recognition that they are not all the same and there are many variations and custom modifications to meet individual needs.

Yes, I agree. I think it may also be that the size of boat on which they seem to be most useful (30'+ with modern rigs) is also generally the most visible in marinas.

Mine was nearly useful. In fact it was useful, it's just that the disadvantages when it wasn't being useful outweighed the advantages when it was.