JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
In windy conditions they are best eschewed. Leaving either on for a Scottish winter is asking for trouble ...
Stackpack: I'm not at all convinced.
- Thread starter NealB
- Start date
In windy conditions they are best eschewed. Leaving either on for a Scottish winter is asking for trouble ...
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Of course, but it doesn't stop anyone using them the rest of the time, unlike Andrew & his aversion to stack packs because of his perceived imaginary huge windage problem.
Seajet
...
YES !
Dodgers too.
This is what modern waterproofs are for.
If the sprayhoods, dodgers and even rolled headsails had been designed in grp, people would say ' what a god-awful motorsailor ' but somehow because all this windage is blue canvas it's alright...
Most boats with these things were never designed with them in mind - let alone stackpacks
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Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
In the last 6 weeks ( for example) my sail has been in and out of the stack pack about 35 times. Each time it has made moving about on deck a much safer operation, as sometimes the waves have been up to 3 metres high & I sail single handed. In a year the same operation probably takes place about 80-90 times. However, in the last 15 years my boat has not been in a storm serious enough for me to say " Wow! I wish I had not had that stack pack fitted due to the high windage" _The same goes for my furled jib. i do remove all my sails in the winter of course.
The sail fits snugly inside the cover. It is no bigger than a harbour stowed cover & far easier to use when single handed. I would suggest that from a glace around my marina most covers are similar. I have spoken to owners who have had a problem getting new sails into their stackpacks as the new sails are stiffer & need more room. This suggests that they are not oversized.
So I would suggest that your argument is a bit irrelevant & your opinion unrealistically biased ( as usual)
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Ah, but remember though, Andrew goes out sailing in his wonderboat in force 11 (as verified by the TS Royalist), winds the rest of us are desperately trying to stop fenders popping out, lines chafing, or even just stand up in. Therefore he has to eschew all normal boat equipment & comforts like roller reefing, dodgers, speed log, sprayhood, side-decks etc., & has to make sure his purist rufty tufty image is not despoiled at the club bar either. Of course, if you're out in violent storm force winds, you have to ensure you have all sorts of extra safety kit on board too, like multiple bread knives stashed around the deck to ward off incoming mutant baguettes, or something.
DJE
Well-Known Member
But there is another argument about windage and that is the additional drag produced by the stack pack and lazyjacks which are in place when sailing to windward. A conventional over-boom cover would be stowed below decks and therefore not producing drag. Hence no stack packs and lazy jacks on racing boats.
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Agreed, & for racers it makes sense, but for cruisers it's not huge, & can be mitigated by rolling up & tieing down the cover.
Seajet
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Daydream believer; So I would suggest that your argument is a bit irrelevant & your opinion unrealistically biased ( as usual)[/QUOTE said:
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
Ah, but it's only in Andy-weird-world where 22' erfundenvunderboots can sail to windward in force 11 violent storms. The rest of us in winds like that are trying to retrieve our dogs from the neighbouring county & put them back on their chains, so an extra trivial bit of windage from a stackpack doesn't matter in the sailing we dull types do.
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DJE
Well-Known Member
Well this is our current compromise - lazy jacks and over-boom cover.
This is the new mainsail and it flakes down much better than the old one. Two people on board, Sue pays out the halyard (and steers) while I flake the sail. Usually turns out not too shabby. In a hurry or in bad conditions we can just release the halyard, drop the lot into the lazy jacks, and sort it out later.
The sail has 3/4 length battens which seem to help a lot and the lazy jacks don't go too far down the boom so they rarely snag the battens when hoisting. I notice that a lot of stack packs have lazy jacks going very close to the end of the boom presumably to hold up the end of the stack pack. Maybe that contributes to batten-snagging.
This is the new mainsail and it flakes down much better than the old one. Two people on board, Sue pays out the halyard (and steers) while I flake the sail. Usually turns out not too shabby. In a hurry or in bad conditions we can just release the halyard, drop the lot into the lazy jacks, and sort it out later.
The sail has 3/4 length battens which seem to help a lot and the lazy jacks don't go too far down the boom so they rarely snag the battens when hoisting. I notice that a lot of stack packs have lazy jacks going very close to the end of the boom presumably to hold up the end of the stack pack. Maybe that contributes to batten-snagging.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
The statpack support at the end of the boom goes to the topping lift so battens do not snag.
Also you only need the lazy jacks when dropping the sail so pull then forward to the mast when hoisting the main and when sailing. This also reduces windage and possible chafe on the sail
DJE
Well-Known Member
Just saying what I see around here. Lots of stackpacks with lazy jacks fixed close to the end of the boom. Possibly due to popularity of rod kickers and absence of topping lifts.
And almost nobody pulling the lazy jacks forward to the mast. Doesn't that defeat the object of doing everything from the cockpit?
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Much more important to many people than controls in the cockpit is minimal faff. So (when it works without snagging), there is one less job to do if you don't pull the lazy jacks forward. You have already got rid of the job of a topping lift.
After some hassles hoisting - much worse a couple of years ago than I'd had before although I don't think I'd changed anything - I wanted to try the idea of bringing them forward but there was too much tension in the lines to make any real difference and with the tops of the lazyjacks tied up to the second spreader it would have involved a mast climb to lose any tension.
So I may eventually get up there and put some halyards in so they become adjustable for the first time, but it's a fair way down my list of "must dos" except at those exact moments I'm hoisting the main.
Seajet
...
As it seems you must have my life story tattoo'd you may recall we set off into a forecast F6 in the Solent; while some of the 3 transatlantic Andersons beat through a real F10 in the Western Approaches, obviously we'd never have dreamed of setting off if we knew what we were in for, even when we tied up in the very sheltered ( old format ) East Cowes marina, spray was blowing across the pontoons.
But she got us there.
There is a painting of the She 36 ' Lorelei ' in the 1979 Fastnet with an inscription by her owner " I knew she would never let me down " - which is how I feel about my boat.
Beware, there is an A22 fully set up for the Jester, owned by a Master Mariner - just a matter of his organising time off from ship driving.
And you never know, there may be another if the skipper can sort out some personal snags.
NealB
Well-Known Member
That looks very neat, and is the solution I think I'll opt for (ie keep the lazy jacks, dispense with the stackpack cover).
One thing that puzzles me ...... it's the top two battens that get caught on the lazy jacks when hoisting. Once they're clear, the others follow without too much swearing.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
I pull the lazy jacks forward before I leave the dock and only return then to the aft position when I return to sheltered water so its quite safe.
The lazy jack lines could if you wish be taken to the cockpit for control from there.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Are these personal attacks really worth while, chaps? For what it's worth, I've been out (motoring, for complicated reasons) in the Clyde with gusts of 53kt. Since F11 starts at just 56kt, I see no reason to exclude the possibility of F11 gusts from leisure sailing.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
But look at the picture in post #97. Are you really telling us that the stack pack is a significant drag on a cruising boat if it is set up correctly.
Oh. & once my lazy jacks are set at the start of the season i rarely have to adjust them for the rest of the season. None of that faffing about pulling to the mast etc. It is just a case of setting the boat up properly to start with. I do, however, adjust the topping lift quite a lot- when reefing & sail dropping etc
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Thread drift!!
But one has to accept that there is a lot of difference between a few gusts and a full on F8 for instance. People will say that they have been sailing in F8 but in many cases there have only been a few gusts above 34kts which is a lot different to a full blown F8. I would also imagine that sea state in some areas ( Possibly including the Clyde) are far flatter than open seas where the waves have had a couple of hundred miles to build up. I know that F7 in the Thames estuary is perfectly sailable. It is a lot easier than F7 off the north Brittainy coast especially with a few tide rips thrown in for luck.
I am not saying that people have NOT sailed in F8, 9 10 or 11 , only that there is a difference between a few gusts & the real thing.
DJE
Well-Known Member
Is that what you think I'm telling you?