Stack-Pack or Lazy-jacks?

[prv]

And only anti for my 26-footer. On a bigger boat I would certainly have one. It wold be interesting to know what size of boat the "for" voters have

34 foot here. Fitted a new stackpack along with the new sails when we bought her, so haven't sailed this boat without. (She did have lazy jacks and stackpack before as well; they were UV-damaged and ripped so got replaced.) Works pretty well provided you take a little care not to catch the first batten on the way up - once that's past, the others never catch. Does mean only hoisting dead into wind, but the batten cars tend to mandate that anyway. Also no longer falls all the way under its own weight - probably needs some dry lube on the sliders.

Previous boat was 24 foot. Included a stackpack among the big pile of no-longer-used canvas items - the previous owner had taken it off which supports your view about small boats. She was gaff-rigged though, which means the upper part of the sail is already controlled by being laced to the gaff, and you also have twin topping lifts which come down either side of the sail and work like rudimentary lazy jacks. You still need to manually stow the sail, but until you do it's kept under some semblance of control rather than falling all over the deck.

As for tips for improving yours - I don't know about the way down as I don't understand what's catching there, but I can think of two for less catching on the way up. Firstly, if you move the upper ends of the lazyjacks out along the spreaders a way, you get a wider "channel" for the sail to go up in. Secondly, try re-jigging the branching of the lines so that it only spreads out towards the end of the boom right at the bottom. Probably a **** way to describe it, but I'm thinking more like an asymptote rather than a straight line from max Y to max X. That way the ends of the battens (except perhaps the top one) are aft of the lines for most of the way up and can't catch on them.

Pete

 

[charles_reed]

I have (b), I think - a separate sail cover which runs along the slot in the boom held in place by the sail and which has strings going up the mast to guide the sail down. Like yours, my boat is 26' long and I loathe the bloody system with a passion. It always catches a batten, or the head board, when the sail is going up and it often catches something going down as well. Although it is quicker once the sail is lowered than flaking it down on the boom, I reckon that overall it costs me time. I've heard of tricks to do with pulling the lazyjacks out of the way with string or bungee, but that seems a faff too.

When I can get round to it I plan to have a normal sailcover made, dump the lazyjacks and go back to using an octopus (bungee under the boom with cross bungees to bring over and toggle together) for holding the sail down. I'm also planning a traditional boom tent, which will be much easier with the lazyjacks gone.

From what I read, lazyjacks and stackpacks are great on bigger boats, but I think my mainsail, and therefore yours, is probably right at the point where the costs and the benefits meet.

A definite -ve for lazyjacks is the catching batten-ends, usually on the way up.
The only answer is to always lift and drop head-to-wind. Not, IMHO, a major act of self discipline.
I think the argument about sail area is valid, but that about boat length specious. I had lazyjacks on a 22' with a battenless main and for quick easy drops it was infinitely better than the previous shambles, when single-handed.
Any attempts to modify the lazyjack system will cause more problem than it's worth.

 

[vyv_cox]

A definite -ve for lazyjacks is the catching batten-ends, usually on the way up.

My DIY lazyjacks were made from 4 mm three ply line. I used them for 10 years with what I took to be the normal problems of battens catching during the hoist. My stackpack came with 6 mm plaited lines and although the batten ends catch to some extent it is far less frequent than it was with the 4 mm.

 

[michael_w]

I think a stack pack looks dreadful; on a par with hanging your fenders on the pushpit.

 

[RupertW]

I think a stack pack looks dreadful; on a par with hanging your fenders on the pushpit.

You'd really hate my boat then, fenders only go on the pushpit when the weather gets really rough, otherwise I sail with them still tied to the guardrails rolling about on the side deck. Of course I do make sure they are all properly deployed along the sides when I am at anchor.

I presume you dislike guardrails and pushpits too, along with side windows unless they are circular and all those horrible wires associated with the bermudan rig.

 

[Greenheart]

I think a stack pack looks dreadful...

Umm... why? Seems to me it's a tidy answer to a question which always meant inescapable effort which was a pain, shorthanded.

What's the better-looking alternative for shorthanded crews?

 

[prv]

I think a stack pack looks dreadful

Umm... why? Seems to me it's a tidy answer to a question which always meant inescapable effort which was a pain, shorthanded.

You seem to be answering a different question, Dan. Of course it's practical and saves effort, which is why we have them. But there's no question that a nicely-filled sail looks better without a slab of loose blue acrylic dangling at the foot of it.

I have straps and buckles which allow me to roll the stackpack up and hide it almost completely (along with pulling the lazyjacks in against the mast and boom). But I only bother to use them on a long leg, like a Channel crossing, in nice weather when I'm not expecting to have to reef.

Pete

 

[sparkie]

If cost is the only thing that's stopping you using sail bags then make your own. Nice winter project and all you need is SWMBO's sewing machine, acrylic canvas and a nice sharp needle or two (denim quality). Cheap as chips and mine have done six years now. Zips rot eventually if not protected, but easily sorted. Good luck!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Size in terms of boat length is not so relevant. I have one on my 26' - in fact just had a new one made to replace the 22 year old original. More important is the length of the foot and general size of the sail, plus whether you want to be able to do all the sail handling, including hoisting and dropping the main from the cockpit. If this is your aim there is no contest - stack pack and lazy jacks worth their weight in gold.

Thanks. That's an interesting point. I do my sail handling from the mast. If I was doing it from the cockpit then I can see things would be different, not least because it would be much easier to pull the back of the sail aft a bit, which is what's needed to deal with most of the snarl ups.

 

[JumbleDuck]

As for tips for improving yours - I don't know about the way down as I don't understand what's catching there, but I can think of two for less catching on the way up. Firstly, if you move the upper ends of the lazyjacks out along the spreaders a way, you get a wider "channel" for the sail to go up in. Secondly, try re-jigging the branching of the lines so that it only spreads out towards the end of the boom right at the bottom. Probably a **** way to describe it, but I'm thinking more like an asymptote rather than a straight line from max Y to max X. That way the ends of the battens (except perhaps the top one) are aft of the lines for most of the way up and can't catch on them.

Thanks, Pete. The upper pulleys for mine are cheek blocks on the mast, just below the spreaders, and the narrowness of the "slot" is definitely an issue. I'll try some fiddling with the rope proportions as you suggest. For a start it would be better if and batten hangups happened lower down.

 

[Greenheart]

...there's no question that a nicely-filled sail looks better without a slab of loose blue acrylic dangling at the foot of it. I have straps and buckles which allow me to roll the stackpack up and hide it almost completely (along with pulling the lazyjacks in against the mast and boom).

Ah, I see. Then I agree. If I were to fit a stack-pack without straps or shock-cord to take up the slack, I'd be almost completely blind to leeward!

I too pull my LJs forward along boom & mast when sailing, to keep the airflow clean over the sail, and to lessen the probability of a hideous tangle if I'm caught out, trapezing.

Snagging battens when hoisting hasn't been such a problem for me even to think that LJs mightn't be so handy. But, a line to tug them outboard at the spreaders - nice plan. :encouragement:

 

[charles_reed]

I think a stack pack looks dreadful; on a par with hanging your fenders on the pushpit.

There's no accounting for tastes, is there?

 

[charles_reed]

Ah, I see. Then I agree. If I were to fit a stack-pack without straps or shock-cord to take up the slack, I'd be almost completely blind to leeward!

I too pull my LJs forward along boom & mast when sailing, to keep the airflow clean over the sail, and to lessen the probability of a hideous tangle if I'm caught out, trapezing.

Snagging battens when hoisting hasn't been such a problem for me even to think that LJs mightn't be so handy. But, a line to tug them outboard at the spreaders - nice plan. :encouragement:

With the last 3 boom bags I've had, they've been designed so that most of the bag is contained within the bight next to the sail - the result is that one only has about 1/3rd of the boom bag exposed. The bag exceeds the boom depth by only about 10%. As to pulling the lazyjacks to the mast - what a lot of spare string one must have.
No doubt this "cleanliness of the airflow" is something that you've measured, rather than an article of faith?

 

[prv]

As to pulling the lazyjacks to the mast - what a lot of spare string one must have.

I sewed a small flat pocket to the outside of the stackpack on each side. The extra lazyjack line stuffs in there when they're rigged.

Pete

 

[dulcibella]

Made my own stackpack over the winter. The tapes inside the cover that tie the sail down can tie under the boom to tidy the pack when sailing.

 

[Stemar]

If cost is the only thing that's stopping you using sail bags then make your own. Nice winter project and all you need is SWMBO's sewing machine, acrylic canvas and a nice sharp needle or two (denim quality). Cheap as chips and mine have done six years now. Zips rot eventually if not protected, but easily sorted. Good luck!

+1.

It's a relatively simple project as measurments don't have to be to the millimetre.

A few tips:

Re battens catching - It seems to happen because the lazyjack lines are in the wrong place. Rig some temporary lazyjacks and play around to find the best places for them first

If, like me, you have a main of a certain age, make the pack a size larger than you think. A new, stiff, main won't fit one that's sized to an old floppy one. I had to get another zip and make an insert it the top as an OK, but not especially pleasing bodge. The right thing to do would have been to insert material in the sides, but I needed a quick fix.

On my 24 footer, the boom's quite low, so I lift it out of the way when not sailing. This means the LJs have to be pulled in and let out when raising & lowering. If your other lines are led aft, it's nice if the LJs are too. Also, the lines on Jissel wear as they go over the mast blocks, so they will need to be replaced from time to time.

Finally, my main drops most of the way under its own weight, but there's enough left up the mast to flap around in a breeze. A light downhaul, also lead aft to a jammer solved the problem, but I do need to work on stopping the jammer jamming when the sail's going up, as the air turned blue a couple of times this season

 

[Greenheart]

As to pulling the lazyjacks to the mast - what a lot of spare string one must have. No doubt this "cleanliness of the airflow" is something that you've measured, rather than an article of faith?

Heavens no, all sheerest supposition. But, I wanted the lazyjacks long enough to be fully adjustable, so I can lift the boom over head-height for rowing, or slacken off to put the cover on. And I was keen to avoid what contributors here warned might happen if one was thrown from a trapezing position, into the water on the sail, criss-crossed by the LJs.

I don't always pull the lines forward though.

I don't believe running the LJs forward along the boom to the mast, needs more than about 7ft added to their length - which was considerable anyway because their free ends run down to fairleads by the shroud bases, and through cam cleats, then the tails run into halyard bags. Considering how little time & money it took, I'm delighted with the result...

...not the best pic, sorry. The red line is one part of the LJs; the taut white line a few inches from the shroud base is the starboard LJ's free end, running through the cam cleat.

 

[vyv_cox]

Re battens catching - It seems to happen because the lazyjack lines are in the wrong place. Rig some temporary lazyjacks and play around to find the best places for them first

Definitely not. On a heavily reinforced sail like my Vectran main the vast majority of the bulk and weight is well aft. If the lines are far enough forward that they do not catch the batten ends the sail will fall out of them. We had this for years with my DIY lines, despite lots of playing about with their position. We now have four lines instead of three, even though my boom is not very long and contrary to the advice of the sailmaker. This has made a huge difference to the fall of the clew end of the sail and the sail now drops nicely into the pack. The battens do catch until the sail is about half way up, it's just a matter of being patient and timing the hoist properly. There are arrangements in which the aftermost set are pulled forward on a bungee, which does keep them out of the way, but that seems like even more string to worry about.

 

[johnalison]

The battens do catch until the sail is about half way up, it's just a matter of being patient and timing the hoist properly.

That is my solution too. I could if I wished take the lazyjack hoist to a position halfway along the cross-trees but haven't got around to it yet after only fifteen years. Oddly enough, it is easier to hoist when there is plenty of wind, since then the sail flaps on the way up and tends to free itself. It also helps if you have a system like mine, where I can steer with the tiller between my knees and hoist the main with my hands.

 

[KellysEye]

The problem with lazy jacks is you can't put a sail cover on it to avoid UV damage or winter bird poo, you would need to take the sail off every time you stop sailing. I flaked the sail as it came down put sail ties on and then a canvas cover with a zip underneath. the cover was shaped for the large amount of sail by the boom and the small amount at the back of the boom. If you buy a Stack-Pack make sure it zips up.