Stab in the dark ? do diesel engineers

[Warpa]

This is not marine diesel but my 4x4, so please move this post if its out of place. I have a 2008 Nissan Navara and get a very annoying rattle only when i feather the throttle, foot down its fine, lift off its fine, feather or the time between changing gear and it rattles like a very cold engine.

Nissan have told me its operating within the vehicles parameters, but they dont seem to use the old fashioned method of actually testing and listening to what may be wrong.....if the laptop says it fine, then its fine.

It has had 8 new injectors on top of the original 4 it left the factory with yet the noise is still there and i can sometimes get the more obvious sound of injector rattle when i give it the beans. Im also getting around 8mpg less than other owners

Im not sure if marine diesels show the same symptoms ever, but thought i would take a stab in the dark here as Nissan say its fine but i know its not as i have owned them before

Appologies if this is totally off topic, but i know there are some very could mechanics reading through these pages and it is my tow truck for my boat

 

[PaulGooch]

The Navara has a nasty reputation for making odd noises, then self destructing. Around here, the lay byes and lanes are often littered with burned out Navara's, minus engines, where the pikeys have stolen them and nicked the engines.

A Google search for Navara engine probs will not make you a happy Nissan owner.

 

[Latestarter1]

The Nissan YD25 engine has not been without problems as pointed out by Paul. However word is that they were fixed around 2006??

Has the vehicle had the problem from new?

The dealer screwing around with your vehicle sound clueless. If they have correct dignostic tooling it will flag injector faults, even tell you individual cylinder contribution as injectors perform a clever power balace. The Denso HP3 common rail stuff is about as good as it gets. Replacing injectors with no fault codes, plain nuts!

Going back to your problem, I would be chasing down a sensor fault. A light load diesel rattle suggests that the ECU is not banging in the correct level of timing retard. At part load operation the 3D timing can be real complex. Not sue of Nissan diagnostic tool capability, however you SHOULD be able to log timing and create histgram whilst road testing to create fault.

In the claimed absence of any sensor faults it could be just a software bug requiring an ECU recalibration, ask some searching questions. Is your ECU calibration release is still current? Show me the documentaion.

Could be somthing real simple, for example tiny traces of metallic debris stick to magnet on the engine position sensor.

Renault do Nissan zero favours in the tech department. The right technician should be able to nail this, providing the workshop supervisor is not breathing down his neck about chargeable hours.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

The big YD25 problem was the conrod failure, which apparently affected 3% of D22 Navara's sold in the UK. However it was fixed in 2006 and there have been no such problems with the D40 (although this truck has had problems of its own, most notably the airbag sensor fault which rather helpfully delayed the deployment of the airbag until after the accident had finished happening...).

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[dabsolute470]

we had 2 of them new in 2002 and both of them blew up in 2006 and i friend has one 2005 model and his blew up last year, just our experiance of them.
all had about 80k to 100k on the clocks and reg serviced.

 

[Firefly625]

I have a good friend who has a Nissan Dealership, as well as a Honda dealership. His ratio of warranty to retail work for his Nissan site is running at around 32%. When we were an MG/Rover dealer, our warranty / retail ratio was at 30%... FYI our Honda warranty to retail rate is 4%....

sorry, of no use to you at all... but I must say I was very surprised to hear those figures from Nissan. But hope you find a fix.

 

[Warpa]

The Nissan YD25 engine has not been without problems as pointed out by Paul. However word is that they were fixed around 2006??

Has the vehicle had the problem from new?

The dealer screwing around with your vehicle sound clueless. If they have correct dignostic tooling it will flag injector faults, even tell you individual cylinder contribution as injectors perform a clever power balace. The Denso HP3 common rail stuff is about as good as it gets. Replacing injectors with no fault codes, plain nuts!

Going back to your problem, I would be chasing down a sensor fault. A light load diesel rattle suggests that the ECU is not banging in the correct level of timing retard. At part load operation the 3D timing can be real complex. Not sue of Nissan diagnostic tool capability, however you SHOULD be able to log timing and create histgram whilst road testing to create fault.

In the claimed absence of any sensor faults it could be just a software bug requiring an ECU recalibration, ask some searching questions. Is your ECU calibration release is still current? Show me the documentaion.

Could be somthing real simple, for example tiny traces of metallic debris stick to magnet on the engine position sensor.

Renault do Nissan zero favours in the tech department. The right technician should be able to nail this, providing the workshop supervisor is not breathing down his neck about chargeable hours.

Now this is what annoys me with Nissan, you appear to know your stuff, probably a true mechanic who can strip and rebuild engines, whereas Nissan 'technicians' do a 9 week coarse to learn how to replace like for like.

To ne honest although they say its operating within its parameters i dont think they are actually listening to what i have told them. When i got Nissan UK involved i had hoped to meet the 'head technician' and have him explain the noise to me. Looks like i need to make a trip about an hour away from me to a garage i used to use who do know there stuff, unfortunately they wont have the Nissan diag equipement, next option is to go to a different Nissan dealership and pray i get a competent 'technician' to come out on a road test with me.

I can perform an ECU reset myself but not an update, not sure if that will help much. I have also put the plug and play performance chip back on which alters the timing of the fuel, the noise is still there when that is fitted so obviously not a fuelling problem.

One thing i find very odd is that it had 2 new injectors about a month ago, i told them the noise was still there and they checked it again and said the other 2 needed replacing, 3 weeks after that the Nissan UK chap said to change all 4 again...what the hell is going on there

 

[Renegade_Master]

I have a good friend who has a Nissan Dealership, as well as a Honda dealership. His ratio of warranty to retail work for his Nissan site is running at around 32%. When we were an MG/Rover dealer, our warranty / retail ratio was at 30%... FYI our Honda warranty to retail rate is 4%....

sorry, of no use to you at all... but I must say I was very surprised to hear those figures from Nissan. But hope you find a fix.

Yup love my Hondas, bikes and cars never had problems rock solid engines.

 

[Latestarter1]

Now this is what annoys me with Nissan, you appear to know your stuff, probably a true mechanic who can strip and rebuild engines, whereas Nissan 'technicians' do a 9 week coarse to learn how to replace like for like.

To ne honest although they say its operating within its parameters i dont think they are actually listening to what i have told them. When i got Nissan UK involved i had hoped to meet the 'head technician' and have him explain the noise to me. Looks like i need to make a trip about an hour away from me to a garage i used to use who do know there stuff, unfortunately they wont have the Nissan diag equipement, next option is to go to a different Nissan dealership and pray i get a competent 'technician' to come out on a road test with me.

I can perform an ECU reset myself but not an update, not sure if that will help much. I have also put the plug and play performance chip back on which alters the timing of the fuel, the noise is still there when that is fitted so obviously not a fuelling problem.

One thing i find very odd is that it had 2 new injectors about a month ago, i told them the noise was still there and they checked it again and said the other 2 needed replacing, 3 weeks after that the Nissan UK chap said to change all 4 again...what the hell is going on there

No I am not a mechanic as you put it, the last time I was paid to get my hands dirty to strip and rebuild an engine was a Sulzer 8 RND in 1971. I have spent the time in between as an engineer designing and evaluating diesel engines. You could put it that I was part of a team creating problems for poor guys who fix em.

Please do not take my comment as appearing rude, however you do not appear to have taken any of my comments on board. Sorry to disagree, however you problem IS a fuelling issue, the ECM calibration is putting in the wrong degree of injector timing in the 3D timing table at part load. No point is discussing whacky performance chips, they are just screwing with the injector PWM signal. If the base calibration has a bug it has a bug, changing the duration of PWM signal will make squat all difference. If there is a revised cal which fixed the bug that is what you require.

Electronic diesel engines are real nuts simple, people just make them difficult. While back I was asked to lecture to a bunch of perspective diesel engine technicians. What a waste of time; how the lads had been educated I have no clue, What do you do when the ECU on the motor we were discussing was whole lot brighter than the class as a whole!

 

[Warpa]

Thanks again for the reply. Nissan UK have informed me and repeated that my truck is operating normally, BUT i am welcome to take it to any Nissan dealership to have it checked, HOWEVER if no fault is found i will be liable for a charge

So even armed with the detailed advice above it looks like i am screwed, i wont be privy to any bugs in the ECU, and i highly doubt that if the ECU is working normally that they even have a fix for it. Looks like i have to live with it. I also get a surge of power when i hit 2k RPM in every gear, this never happened on my euro 3 Navara D40 so maybe that all ties in with what you have said?

As for the clonking at the rear i can only replicate it when i have the boat and trailor on the back, looks like im going to have to un winterise the trailor, re strap the boat down, remove electric supply and heaters to tow the bloody thing down there so they can road test with a heavy trailor on the back

 

[Richard10002]

Have you had a look for some nissan forums. I have a peugeot 407 and loads of private individuals have the software for diagnosing stuff... perhaps the same is available for Nissans??

 

[Latestarter1]

Thanks again for the reply. Nissan UK have informed me and repeated that my truck is operating normally, BUT i am welcome to take it to any Nissan dealership to have it checked, HOWEVER if no fault is found i will be liable for a charge

So even armed with the detailed advice above it looks like i am screwed, i wont be privy to any bugs in the ECU, and i highly doubt that if the ECU is working normally that they even have a fix for it. Looks like i have to live with it. I also get a surge of power when i hit 2k RPM in every gear, this never happened on my euro 3 Navara D40 so maybe that all ties in with what you have said?

As for the clonking at the rear i can only replicate it when i have the boat and trailor on the back, looks like im going to have to un winterise the trailor, re strap the boat down, remove electric supply and heaters to tow the bloody thing down there so they can road test with a heavy trailor on the back

Obviously Nissan/Renault people incapable of writing decent engine controls software. Nissan people at their Cranfield R&D centre were top notch, Renault made loads redundant, said, we can do this better in France.

Sadly the putty metal rear diff bearings are a known problem.

 

[Warpa]

Have you had a look for some nissan forums. I have a peugeot 407 and loads of private individuals have the software for diagnosing stuff... perhaps the same is available for Nissans??

I am a long standing member of the Navara forum in this country, while it is full of information there are no true mechanics, certainly none with the right diagnostic tools which is a surprise

"Sadly the putty metal rear diff bearings are a known problem."

Yes i am well aware of the **** Nissan are using at the moment, the D40 had been out 0n a 55 plate, had 2 minor facelifts and is still riddled with the same old weak parts, not like the bullet proof micra's my X wife and my daughter drive...really does make me wonder about this renault rubbish, i must admit i would never buy Renault, but am probably driving more Renault than Nissan

 

[Bojangles]

I've had a Navara new since 2008 and have been broadly happy with it although it does have a reduced revs issue just now which is to be repaired tomorrow under warranty (don't ask me what they are doing because I didnt really listen to what parts they were getting..) You said you were getting about 8mpg less than everyone else, I get about 27mpg (if the computer is right) and although I rarely tow, I do carry loads of about 500kgs a couple of times a week.

 

[Warpa]

I've had a Navara new since 2008 and have been broadly happy with it although it does have a reduced revs issue just now which is to be repaired tomorrow under warranty (don't ask me what they are doing because I didnt really listen to what parts they were getting..) You said you were getting about 8mpg less than everyone else, I get about 27mpg (if the computer is right) and although I rarely tow, I do carry loads of about 500kgs a couple of times a week.

I get about 19/20mpg with sensible around town driving and a manual gear box. This is when the computer settles, my last D40 with the eauro 3 engine settled at 35.2

 

[Latestarter1]

not like the bullet proof micra's my X wife and my daughter drive...really does make me wonder about this renault rubbish, i must admit i would never buy Renault, but am probably driving more Renault than Nissan

Try Googling Micra timing chain problems. Or look on Ebay for cheap Micra's being sold quoting timing chain problem.

Hard cold starting, engine management light on. Diagnosis cam position sensor fault, however new sensor fails to fix the problem. No, they are using internally toothed Morse HyVo chain which suffers spectacular sprocket wear at around 20K miles. US CAA outlawed use of HyVo chain on aero engine designs zillion years ago for this very reason.

£900 to a grand to fix, some cheap to run little runabout.

 

[Warpa]

Try Googling Micra timing chain problems. Or look on Ebay for cheap Micra's being sold quoting timing chain problem.

Hard cold starting, engine management light on. Diagnosis cam position sensor fault, however new sensor fails to fix the problem. No, they are using internally toothed Morse HyVo chain which suffers spectacular sprocket wear at around 20K miles. US CAA outlawed use of HyVo chain on aero engine designs zillion years ago for this very reason.

£900 to a grand to fix, some cheap to run little runabout.

Well both the S plates my daughter and X run are fine fortunately. Its almost like a conspiracy to fit cheap **** so the customer has to keep shelling out shed loads of cash. I should have kept my Cortina

 

[burgundyben]

I should have kept my Cortina

Getting off the mobo topic a bit, but modern cars are a complex beast, it seems to me that repair bills are much less frequent but also many more £££'s.

Me? I run a 25 year old BMW and a 30 year old Porsche. Both easily and cheaply diagnosed and fixed.

I'm hanging onto the Perkins in the boat for as long as possible for the same reasons, I'm well stocked with spares too.

 

[ccscott49]

Getting off the mobo topic a bit, but modern cars are a complex beast, it seems to me that repair bills are much less frequent but also many more £££'s.

Me? I run a 25 year old BMW and a 30 year old Porsche. Both easily and cheaply diagnosed and fixed.

I'm hanging onto the Perkins in the boat for as long as possible for the same reasons, I'm well stocked with spares too.

Same reason I have an old Pajero 2.8 and have Mermaids (fords) in the boat.