ssr registration and finance

[jon and michie]

Hi - I have contacted the ssr enquiries office and gave them a ssr number (with a possible view to buy the boat) to see if it had any finance against it .
The reply I got from them was that the number isn't on the register.
Would I be right in thinking that the number I gave has possibly expired and the owner has not bothered to re register the boat, if this is case would any finance if was against the boat be now be paid off?

BTW the boat is now 14/15 years old now.

Any opinions are welcomed

thanks
Jon

 

[sailorman]

ssr does not hold that sort of info, in fact not even proving title
The Full British part 1 will hold the details you req "If" part 1 registered

 

[jon and michie]

Thank you Sailorman.
Now If it was part 1 registered and as I was told by the chap on the telephone the number I gave wasn't on the register and the boat hasn't been reregistered - would that mean any finance has likely to have been paid off? like I said the boat is now 14/15 years old.
I would of course try and find out everything historically and if a deal can be done get a RYA or MCA bill of sale with the seller signing about being encumbrances free.

thanks again
Jon

 

[prv]

Thank you Sailorman.
Now If it was part 1 registered and as I was told by the chap on the telephone the number I gave wasn't on the register and the boat hasn't been reregistered - would that mean any finance has likely to have been paid off? like I said the boat is now 14/15 years old.

Part One registry is based on the name, not a number. If the boat had an SSR number which then expired, it's fairly unlikely to have been re-registered on Part One.

In theory the SSR doesn't prove anything except that the boat is legally British. In practice it doesn't even prove that since anybody can fill in the online form.

So you won't find out anything about mortgages by asking the registry.

Pete

 

[jfm]

Would I be right in thinking that the number I gave has possibly expired and the owner has not bothered to re register the boat, if this is case would any finance if was against the boat be now be paid off?

Honestly, no.
That does not tell you that any finance on the boat has been paid off.
Furthermore, getting the bill of sale you mention amounts to only modest comfort.
You should get comfortable by other means that there is no financing - loads of prior threads on that topic

 

[jon and michie]

Thank you for the help so far.
I have taken a lot of useful advice especially from Jez (eternally grateful thank you).
And I am little bit more relaxed or focussed on the private buying side of things.
It is a pity that there isn't some sort of HPI check for boats, As I am sure this would benefit everyone from the finance houses trying to chase their money to insurers for any wire offs/stolen boats and of course the consumer having a peace of mind.
I can hear Dragons den calling LOL

anyway without going on
Thank you

Jon

 

[Tranona]

Thank you for the help so far.
I have taken a lot of useful advice especially from Jez (eternally grateful thank you).
And I am little bit more relaxed or focussed on the private buying side of things.
It is a pity that there isn't some sort of HPI check for boats, As I am sure this would benefit everyone from the finance houses trying to chase their money to insurers for any wire offs/stolen boats and of course the consumer having a peace of mind.
I can hear Dragons den calling LOL

anyway without going on
Thank you

Jon

The problem with boats is that many do not have any formal identity such as car registration, so something like HPI would be unworkable as it needs some sort of record to search.

Anyway, the proportion of boats that have finance against them, particularly older and lower value boats is small simply because few lenders will lend against them. The few established lenders who do provide finance will either insist on on the boat being registered so they can register their charge or will retain the originals of the boat's documents until the loan is paid back.

So, although you can never be 100% sure that nobody has a charge over the boat, site of evidence of continuous title gives some confidence.

 

[Whitelighter]

Anyway, the proportion of boats that have finance against them, particularly older and lower value boats is small simply because few lenders will lend against them. The few established lenders who do provide finance will either insist on on the boat being registered so they can register their charge or will retain the originals of the boat's documents until the loan is paid back.

They will in fact do both of those things, at the same time

 

[AllanG]

They will in fact do both of those things, at the same time

I don't think this is always the case, as when I took a loan from Lombard Marine Finance, all they required were the retention of the boat's original documents.

 

[jfm]

They will in fact do both of those things, at the same time

Only some, not all, on both counts. But I agree that very few lenders would not do at least one of those things, and therefore if the boat has no part 1 mortgage showing then the ability of seller to show you original BC, BoS chain, reg certificate, orig VAT invoice, gives you quite good comfort that there is no debt secured in favour of one of the major finance companies.

I agree with Tran that hpi-style system cannot work because boats are not compulsorily registered. In UK the only physical assets that must generally be registered on a register controlled by the state are land, cars and planes iirc. If you create such compulsory reg for boats THEN you can have HPI, but be careful what you wish for

 

[Whitelighter]

I don't think this is always the case, as when I took a loan from Lombard Marine Finance, all they required were the retention of the boat's original documents.

Sorry yes, I should have said 'can' and 'do'. It depends on the size of the loan and where the boat is based

 

[AllanG]

Sorry yes, I should have said 'can' and 'do'. It depends on the size of the loan and where the boat is based

No probs....and as my loan was fairly small, and the boat was UK based, perhaps this is why they didn't insist on Part 1 registration.

 

[TwoHooter]

I agree with Tran that hpi-style system cannot work because boats are not compulsorily registered. In UK the only physical assets that must generally be registered on a register controlled by the state are land, cars and planes iirc. If you create such compulsory reg for boats THEN you can have HPI, but be careful what you wish for

There is a scheme which seems to work for assets which do not have to be on a State register, and that's the CRIS scheme for caravans, see http://www.cris.co.uk/ I used that when we had a caravan.
I contacted them to suggest they might like to offer a scheme for boat owners using their existing technology and they said they were thinking about it but that was over a year ago.

 

[jon and michie]

Maybe the finance houses should make an agreement that when a mortgage is taken out on a boat that a condition is that the boat remains on the ssr until the finance has been paid off, so when the registration period is due to expire it then must be re registered.
I am sure the finance company could oversee this.

just a thought

Jon

 

[Whitelighter]

Jon,

SSR is complete nonsense for just about everything apart from getting the local plod to go away when they ask for registration papers (as already discussed).

The Part 1 registry allows the registration of a mortgage and you can request a transcript of what is registered against a boat. You also get an official number which should be permanently carved or plated onto the boat.

Part 1 does however require a specific tonnage survey (and no, this isn't weight but the internal volume capacity) and the instruction of a marine lawyer (don't know if this is mandatory, but Lombard insist you use one for P1 - so for the purposes of your idea it may as well be). Adds probably £1000+ to the purchase of a boat.

So it can be done, easily, but there appears to be no appetite for it. Lombard only insist on P1 if your boat is being kept out of the UK

 

[jon and michie]

Yes I definitely see your point Jez and adding £1000+ isn't a positive.
Maybe I am looking too far into it - and what as JFM has stated "be careful what you wish for" As if it was state run then I am sure the government would add some sort of tax into the equation ( I think the French government apply tax to their boaters ).

As I said earlier I am more relaxed and focussed on what I maybe going to purchase - my latter posts where just thoughts on how could we protect ourselves better.

Jon

 

[Tranona]

Yes I definitely see your point Jez and adding £1000+ isn't a positive.
Maybe I am looking too far into it - and what as JFM has stated "be careful what you wish for" As if it was state run then I am sure the government would add some sort of tax into the equation ( I think the French government apply tax to their boaters ).

As I said earlier I am more relaxed and focussed on what I maybe going to purchase - my latter posts where just thoughts on how could we protect ourselves better.

Jon

There is already a state run registration system (Part 1) as already discussed, and used by finance houses for security. it is however, optional as is the caravan scheme suggested above. The reason more boats do not go on it is very simple - it serves no practical purpose for most because in general boats are not used as security against finance because they are lousy security. When lenders do offer finance it is with very stringent conditions which will normally include registration and retention of original documents.

If a boat is not registered it is highly unlikely that there is any finance against it, so your main concern is ensuring that the person who is selling has clear title. The reality is that thousands of boats change hands every year without problems of outstanding finance.

If there really was a systemic problem you can be sure that it would have been dealt with years ago when finance on boats was more common than now.

 

[Jegs]

SSR really only fulfils one function; bureaucrats love 'em - photocopy, make notes, enter details in the computer, etc. Manna from above for rectum sniffers.

ATB,

John G

ATB

 

[Mr Googler]

Am I correct that most boats have a HIN number stamped in the hull?

Could this be used as a unique identifier just like a vin number on a car. Appreciate things can be tampered with but having said that, it's probably tricky to do that with something stamped into fibreglass and make it look right.

An online database using the HIN number to show finance attached wouldn't be complex or onerous..

 

[Tranona]

Am I correct that most boats have a HIN number stamped in the hull?

Could this be used as a unique identifier just like a vin number on a car. Appreciate things can be tampered with but having said that, it's probably tricky to do that with something stamped into fibreglass and make it look right.

An online database using the HIN number to show finance attached wouldn't be complex or onerous..

Standardised HIN are recent (post 1998) thing and should be recorded on relevant paperwork - Builders certificate, Bill of Sale, SSR or Part 1 etc. However, there is no central record nor any compulsion on builders to deposit records anywhere. So limited in use unless there is compulsory registration.

As already suggested, few boats are financed by secured lending, and those lenders that do operate in this market have robust methods of showing their interest, so the chances of there being hidden outstanding finance is extremely small. This is unlike cars (and caravans) where probably the majority of (at least new) cars are bought on finance. Hence the popularity of HPI, made possible by compulsory registration and buy in from finance houses. You could be sure that the latter would be the first to insist on some form of central registration if they had a problem with boat finance. The current registration system seems to satisfy their needs.