tcm
...
Ok, but not on a transatlantic trip, right?
Squalls at night in the atlantic
- Thread starter Arcarius
- Start date
Conachair
Guest
Head full of shampoo is not a good look
There does seem to be much doom and gloom talked about. Even crossing the itcz they were all minor legue affairs. A half minute blast at the start then maybe a bucket or 2 of lovely fresh water and a quick scrub on deck.
What´s all the fuss about?
Tradewinds
Well-Known Member
I suppose I've crossed the ITCZ a few times in different parts of the globe on my travels back in the '90s.
I too, have got lathered up only to be left high & dry at the last moment
.
I must say that I never found it to be as bad as described in the old sailing books I had read - but then I had the opportunity to put the engine on & make a few miles headway unlike some of the earlier sailors who had no choice but to sit it out.
If you want stress, travelling from Singapore to Langkawi, Malaysia in frequent & massive thunder & lightning storms takes some beating (although TCM would probably enjoy it)
I too, have got lathered up only to be left high & dry at the last moment
.I must say that I never found it to be as bad as described in the old sailing books I had read - but then I had the opportunity to put the engine on & make a few miles headway unlike some of the earlier sailors who had no choice but to sit it out.
If you want stress, travelling from Singapore to Langkawi, Malaysia in frequent & massive thunder & lightning storms takes some beating (although TCM would probably enjoy it)
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Conachair
Guest
If you want stress, travelling from Singapore to Malaysia in frequent & massive thunder & lightning storms takes some beating (although TCM would probably enjoy it)
Ah, lightning, now that is scarey
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
Unless you have a big crew then a windvane is the way to go. We know a couple whose autopilot packed up and they were exhausted when they arrived. We have a Hydrovane. We used a generator to charge batteried, make water, cool the fridge and boil kettles, one hour in the morning and again in the evening. Had we not had the generator and just wanted to charge the batteries it would be the same total time for us.
macd
Well-Known Member
Whilst far less Trades experienced than some on this thread, I'd make the point that squalls and downpours are not the same thing. Squalls generally arise out of intense convective activity, which is much less likely when the sky is overcast. (Relatively) windless downpours typically arise out of frontal activity and cloud formations more strata-like (in fact we're having a big one now, but luckily I'm safely tucked into a bar).
Therefore, there's often a starry sky to see the black patch of an approaching squall against. If the moon's out and of decent size, this usually gives enough light to observe clouds formations in considerable detail.
Going downwind in the Trades, with the freedom to manoeuvre that affords, I was usually able to steer out of the path of squalls. Perhaps they weren't very big ones.
Therefore, there's often a starry sky to see the black patch of an approaching squall against. If the moon's out and of decent size, this usually gives enough light to observe clouds formations in considerable detail.
Going downwind in the Trades, with the freedom to manoeuvre that affords, I was usually able to steer out of the path of squalls. Perhaps they weren't very big ones.
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AndrewB
Well-Known Member
Squally cumulus seems to travel in a slightly different direction from the prevailing wind, and for that reason I've always found it difficult to decide which way to go in order to avoid. Any tips?
tcm
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In the northern hemisphere the higher atmosphere air tends to be veered (coming from a more-clockwise direction) relative to whatever the wind at sea level. And in the southern hemisphere it tends to be more backed.
Thus as seen on the radar screen, in the Atlantic from canaries to carib, a likely suspect coming your way will appear at left hand side of the radar screen, bottom left hand corner.
It'll be small to start with from 20miles away on screen and perhaps seem like another vessel. I have called up quite few squalls on VHF but they never respond, which i find rather rude : )
Squalls are most likely in early part of the night, it seems. The sudden drop in temp means all the fluffily clouds cool fast and are upset and start crying, erm possibly... Oh whatever, it'll be complicated microclimate stuff. Anyways later in the night they seem to have blown themselves out or temperatures equalised a bit. Or both.
You are more likely to dodge a squall if on port tack, sailing wind coming from port quarter, as you are moving across the path of the thing i.e - head south.
If you plan to collect water or ride the thing, head more north.
In the Pacific, my limited once-only trip (tho only double handed so saw lots of it) confirms this sort of thing - and at/around the equator the squalls run straight up astern for anyone like me who is erm, flying a spinnaker and bashing along dead downwind give or take on a catamaringue, more later.
The actual arrival of the squall is heralded by a small yet noticeable sea-level cooler temperature airstream - a few metres above the sea - you feel it on your legs for a few seconds, and its departure a sea level warmer wind. Er it might be the other way around, but it's definitely there.
Whether dodging or hunting, the EBL/VRM feature on even the crummiest radar is a good (ish) way to predict what is happening and likely to happen. Mainly, stick that electronic bearing line on the thing and if it vaguely creeps up that line it's heading towards you.
There isn't a whole fat lot of point doing to much more than heading south (on that canaries-carib run) if you are dodging, or north if you are following cos it's not as tho they are slow rifle bullets - they jig about a bit, yerknow, natural phenomenon innit.
As the squall comes closer and closer, it will increase in apparent size on radar, and there is usually a feeling within two miles that hah, you dodged it, or alternatively ... this one is for you.
This is the time to laugh in the face of Nature! After all, there is naff all else you can do, not really - nor try to do. Shout piratical noises to yourself if necessary, and/or play Ride of The Valkyries on cockpit speakers. I did the latter. Very good value
The first hit is the hardest - most rain and most wind at the leading edge of the squall. Try NOT to be in a situation that you ooh i know, go change summink cos it's all a bit anxious. If at last moment you think ooh heck - gun the motor to reduce wind speed. Not a big deal in normal 2m seas - but sometimes there is bigger sea and the sails get bash as you stall as each wave goes thru.
The squall will likely come at you about 20kts ish, general wind speed, ish,, so yerknow closing speed of 10-15kts, means that the squall way down in that bottom left hand corner of radar is over 24 miles and more than an hour away. So no need to mad panic at first sight, nor indeed at any time, not really.
On 50ft catameringue I have done transit with ornery white sails, same plus gennaker, same plus Parasailor and then quickest/cheapest with heavy 186sqm spinnaker.
The parasailor is v elegant solution - the wing keeps sail flying down to 7knots TWS (but be careful cos when it dies it flumps on to the mast with all that string and in v light winds you gotta sling the motor in reverse to make some wind and get the sail clear of the mast to sock it...) .... and the vent hole means that it is also good for at least 44knots TWS - then one of the guy ropes blimmin sawed thru on summink so er we socked it, somehow... and also good thing re Psailor is that leakage is thru the middle doesn't induce a "roll" to leak wind like a normal spi.
Downside of a parasailor is that it costs yikes 10k or so for a 50ft boat, size 8 so heck, you can get three heavyweight spi's made for the same price. You are looking for 1.5 oz material, good for 20knotsAWS as i sed elsewhere. The solid spi gives higher speed, no question. I have had no sign of this spi blowing out in over 40knots of wind so far.
If the wind get mad lairy, obviously release and release the spi sheets. Gun the motor to increase actual boat speed and hence reduce apparent wind speed, and this tends to induce SQCS (Suddenly Quiet Crew Syndrome).
Catameringues seem happier on dead run downwind than monos. I suppose this Privllege 495 even more so - it has the 1metre deep steel plate keels 3_m long to hold direction, and the central "nacelle" thing adds buoyancy if you ever stuff it into to back of the wave ahead. In any event, best keep big weight far back to avoid bows diving into waves. Eg emergency water bottles or heavy tins in engine room isn't gonna be a big problem is it? I think jerrycans on deck such a **** idea - if the waves don't gettem the sunshine will. Hum.
IN bigger winds seems reefing the main and flying bigger foresail means you are pulled rather than pushed - centre of pressure ahead of centre of mass. I put main away completely and only fly the big spi, canted over daytimes to correct the course, symmetrically at night so no clever tricky stuff, just fly it higher and higher if you want.
Of course, a key aspect of squalls is lying about the incredibly high winds. If you see 40 knots someone else five miles away will have seen 50. Partly it's ohmygawd lying, and partly the wind measuring is a bit suspect, and partly of course as you bob about the wind goes up and down as the mast nods towards the wind and away from it whilst the boat speed remains constant. But mostly there is a lot of lying. Same applies to wave height as well - as witness youtube honeymoon in crest-free ocean which is somehow 10 feet, I don't think.
In 2007 we followed the tailend of a system (below hurricane strength) a week after the ARC left, one boat reported 54knots but i saw actual max 46 which yerknow is still a fair bit of wind, but another ten from nearby boat is a bit hmmm anyway, altho still okay for telling jokes. One joke is to reassure the crew that actually we are fairly close to land! Yes, really! in fact, it's never more than about 2 miles away - straight down. Another thing you can do if you have done the trip even once before is to say Hey! - wait minute! - yes! - I definitely recognise this bit. And the crew always a bit happier. I play the violin and it's quite nice to play some Irish Jigs. Or the Death March. Sorry. Well, better than being a falsely over cheerful, innit? A bit?
Thus as seen on the radar screen, in the Atlantic from canaries to carib, a likely suspect coming your way will appear at left hand side of the radar screen, bottom left hand corner.
It'll be small to start with from 20miles away on screen and perhaps seem like another vessel. I have called up quite few squalls on VHF but they never respond, which i find rather rude : )
Squalls are most likely in early part of the night, it seems. The sudden drop in temp means all the fluffily clouds cool fast and are upset and start crying, erm possibly... Oh whatever, it'll be complicated microclimate stuff. Anyways later in the night they seem to have blown themselves out or temperatures equalised a bit. Or both.
You are more likely to dodge a squall if on port tack, sailing wind coming from port quarter, as you are moving across the path of the thing i.e - head south.
If you plan to collect water or ride the thing, head more north.
In the Pacific, my limited once-only trip (tho only double handed so saw lots of it) confirms this sort of thing - and at/around the equator the squalls run straight up astern for anyone like me who is erm, flying a spinnaker and bashing along dead downwind give or take on a catamaringue, more later.
The actual arrival of the squall is heralded by a small yet noticeable sea-level cooler temperature airstream - a few metres above the sea - you feel it on your legs for a few seconds, and its departure a sea level warmer wind. Er it might be the other way around, but it's definitely there.
Whether dodging or hunting, the EBL/VRM feature on even the crummiest radar is a good (ish) way to predict what is happening and likely to happen. Mainly, stick that electronic bearing line on the thing and if it vaguely creeps up that line it's heading towards you.
There isn't a whole fat lot of point doing to much more than heading south (on that canaries-carib run) if you are dodging, or north if you are following cos it's not as tho they are slow rifle bullets - they jig about a bit, yerknow, natural phenomenon innit.
As the squall comes closer and closer, it will increase in apparent size on radar, and there is usually a feeling within two miles that hah, you dodged it, or alternatively ... this one is for you.
This is the time to laugh in the face of Nature! After all, there is naff all else you can do, not really - nor try to do. Shout piratical noises to yourself if necessary, and/or play Ride of The Valkyries on cockpit speakers. I did the latter. Very good value
The first hit is the hardest - most rain and most wind at the leading edge of the squall. Try NOT to be in a situation that you ooh i know, go change summink cos it's all a bit anxious. If at last moment you think ooh heck - gun the motor to reduce wind speed. Not a big deal in normal 2m seas - but sometimes there is bigger sea and the sails get bash as you stall as each wave goes thru.
The squall will likely come at you about 20kts ish, general wind speed, ish,, so yerknow closing speed of 10-15kts, means that the squall way down in that bottom left hand corner of radar is over 24 miles and more than an hour away. So no need to mad panic at first sight, nor indeed at any time, not really.
On 50ft catameringue I have done transit with ornery white sails, same plus gennaker, same plus Parasailor and then quickest/cheapest with heavy 186sqm spinnaker.
The parasailor is v elegant solution - the wing keeps sail flying down to 7knots TWS (but be careful cos when it dies it flumps on to the mast with all that string and in v light winds you gotta sling the motor in reverse to make some wind and get the sail clear of the mast to sock it...) .... and the vent hole means that it is also good for at least 44knots TWS - then one of the guy ropes blimmin sawed thru on summink so er we socked it, somehow... and also good thing re Psailor is that leakage is thru the middle doesn't induce a "roll" to leak wind like a normal spi.
Downside of a parasailor is that it costs yikes 10k or so for a 50ft boat, size 8 so heck, you can get three heavyweight spi's made for the same price. You are looking for 1.5 oz material, good for 20knotsAWS as i sed elsewhere. The solid spi gives higher speed, no question. I have had no sign of this spi blowing out in over 40knots of wind so far.
If the wind get mad lairy, obviously release and release the spi sheets. Gun the motor to increase actual boat speed and hence reduce apparent wind speed, and this tends to induce SQCS (Suddenly Quiet Crew Syndrome).
Catameringues seem happier on dead run downwind than monos. I suppose this Privllege 495 even more so - it has the 1metre deep steel plate keels 3_m long to hold direction, and the central "nacelle" thing adds buoyancy if you ever stuff it into to back of the wave ahead. In any event, best keep big weight far back to avoid bows diving into waves. Eg emergency water bottles or heavy tins in engine room isn't gonna be a big problem is it? I think jerrycans on deck such a **** idea - if the waves don't gettem the sunshine will. Hum.
IN bigger winds seems reefing the main and flying bigger foresail means you are pulled rather than pushed - centre of pressure ahead of centre of mass. I put main away completely and only fly the big spi, canted over daytimes to correct the course, symmetrically at night so no clever tricky stuff, just fly it higher and higher if you want.
Of course, a key aspect of squalls is lying about the incredibly high winds. If you see 40 knots someone else five miles away will have seen 50. Partly it's ohmygawd lying, and partly the wind measuring is a bit suspect, and partly of course as you bob about the wind goes up and down as the mast nods towards the wind and away from it whilst the boat speed remains constant. But mostly there is a lot of lying. Same applies to wave height as well - as witness youtube honeymoon in crest-free ocean which is somehow 10 feet, I don't think.
In 2007 we followed the tailend of a system (below hurricane strength) a week after the ARC left, one boat reported 54knots but i saw actual max 46 which yerknow is still a fair bit of wind, but another ten from nearby boat is a bit hmmm anyway, altho still okay for telling jokes. One joke is to reassure the crew that actually we are fairly close to land! Yes, really! in fact, it's never more than about 2 miles away - straight down. Another thing you can do if you have done the trip even once before is to say Hey! - wait minute! - yes! - I definitely recognise this bit. And the crew always a bit happier. I play the violin and it's quite nice to play some Irish Jigs. Or the Death March. Sorry. Well, better than being a falsely over cheerful, innit? A bit?
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KellysEye
Well-Known Member
> the winds DO NOT rise from "20 to fifty knts in a second or so
Yes it did in squall at night. Since you weren't there I don't see how you can make that comment, except perhaps it hasn't happened to you.
> You own blog shew how unnecessarily and inappropriately frightened you were.
No I wasn't and I never wrote that. The most I've sailed in is 70 knots and gusting and we had fifty and gusting over Biscay. When you made these sorts of comments before I mentioned that I spent five years flying and aerobatics and ten years skydiving and BASE jumping, when we started BASE we were getting one fatality every fifteen jumps. Yet again you to make things up about me getting frightened, which is simplty not true. What have you ever done that has risked your life?
Yes it did in squall at night. Since you weren't there I don't see how you can make that comment, except perhaps it hasn't happened to you.
> You own blog shew how unnecessarily and inappropriately frightened you were.
No I wasn't and I never wrote that. The most I've sailed in is 70 knots and gusting and we had fifty and gusting over Biscay. When you made these sorts of comments before I mentioned that I spent five years flying and aerobatics and ten years skydiving and BASE jumping, when we started BASE we were getting one fatality every fifteen jumps. Yet again you to make things up about me getting frightened, which is simplty not true. What have you ever done that has risked your life?
tcm
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Your now-deleted blog indicated otherwise. You recorded that you had a specific number of hours at F7 and something like "an hour at F8" (which isn't 50knots...) and finished breathlessly with "they say it's the milk run - it isn't". KE, many people go over in rowing boats, admittedly big rowing boats but rowing boats nonetheless. A few are planning to go in a "bouncy castle".
I pretty much "know" that it didn't go from 20 to 50 knots in about a second because i have done quite a few transats, and it's never done that, not even close. I also know it because you are increasingly prone to exaggeration - each time this sort of topic comes up, the story of your single trip to the carib becomes ever more dangerous-sounding and the now-somewhat-embarrassing blog seems to have been pulled. So I further know it to be false because you would have mentioned it before and you did not. Such a massive wind acceleration would be the first thing mentioned - e.g. mike golding in southern ocean reported a sudden increase only from 30-50, and his rig came down.
Re "fear"... you sorta demonstrate the point. Like probably lots here -and you too- I've done various mad-sounding things such as learning how to crash motorbikes, assorted wildish car, plane, mountain, sea based stuff ... but at no point did i categorise anything that might sound dangerous as "risking my life". But you seem to categorise quite lot of things in that style? Or at least some? In fact - you were first to use the phrase here? And this is the very nature of unproductive fear - where in fact the risk is not huge, is manageable, can be planned against - you're keen to stress how you are yet again "risking your life"!!
It is telling that the previous owner of the boat came along too - no problem altho....slightly unusual really. Not exactly an example of leading/confronting your own adventure, yourself.
Regardless - I think you could use your experience to help and advise others who might like to benefit from it. My beef is that you seem determined to do the opposite - to exaggerate for the purposes of self-aggrandisment. If you have fun, that's great. If you were a bit frightened that first and only time, that's normal. But at the point where you feel you "risked your life", well, then it's likely that all sorts of things might happen such as, well...remembering things as much worse than they really were, for starters.
In any event, by not doing it a second time, it's remained a massive deal to you, a precious record of ohmigod, that time we nearly died. I have taken several people across the Atlantic, some more than once. There are two main types of people who come along - those who want to do it... and those who want to HAVE DONE IT (and never again) but their story lasts a lifetime. It's great if you enjoy re-telling the story. But here i think exaggeration is unproductive and unhelpful to others, and i wish you wouldn't do it.
I pretty much "know" that it didn't go from 20 to 50 knots in about a second because i have done quite a few transats, and it's never done that, not even close. I also know it because you are increasingly prone to exaggeration - each time this sort of topic comes up, the story of your single trip to the carib becomes ever more dangerous-sounding and the now-somewhat-embarrassing blog seems to have been pulled. So I further know it to be false because you would have mentioned it before and you did not. Such a massive wind acceleration would be the first thing mentioned - e.g. mike golding in southern ocean reported a sudden increase only from 30-50, and his rig came down.
Re "fear"... you sorta demonstrate the point. Like probably lots here -and you too- I've done various mad-sounding things such as learning how to crash motorbikes, assorted wildish car, plane, mountain, sea based stuff ... but at no point did i categorise anything that might sound dangerous as "risking my life". But you seem to categorise quite lot of things in that style? Or at least some? In fact - you were first to use the phrase here? And this is the very nature of unproductive fear - where in fact the risk is not huge, is manageable, can be planned against - you're keen to stress how you are yet again "risking your life"!!
It is telling that the previous owner of the boat came along too - no problem altho....slightly unusual really. Not exactly an example of leading/confronting your own adventure, yourself.
Regardless - I think you could use your experience to help and advise others who might like to benefit from it. My beef is that you seem determined to do the opposite - to exaggerate for the purposes of self-aggrandisment. If you have fun, that's great. If you were a bit frightened that first and only time, that's normal. But at the point where you feel you "risked your life", well, then it's likely that all sorts of things might happen such as, well...remembering things as much worse than they really were, for starters.
In any event, by not doing it a second time, it's remained a massive deal to you, a precious record of ohmigod, that time we nearly died. I have taken several people across the Atlantic, some more than once. There are two main types of people who come along - those who want to do it... and those who want to HAVE DONE IT (and never again) but their story lasts a lifetime. It's great if you enjoy re-telling the story. But here i think exaggeration is unproductive and unhelpful to others, and i wish you wouldn't do it.
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KellysEye
Well-Known Member
Yet again you are repeating things implying things that I've written are not true. For example, I've written before that the previous owner came with us because he asked to come and we agreed. If you haven't experienced wind going from 20 to 50 fine, that doesn't mean we haven't.
If you think 1 fatality every 15 BASE jumps isn't putting life at risk you are living in cloud cuckoo land. The reason we didnt come back over the Atlantic was on our blog but you chose to ingnore it and say 'it's a massive deal to you', it wasn't. We were 100NM from Antigua heading to the Azores when the furling gear committed suicide. We turned back and went into St Martin to buy a new one which also needed the genoa recut and a different sized bolt rope. By the time alll the work was done it was into hurricane season and we didn't want to take the risk of crossing. We had to leave that year because of family illness, so we shipped the boat which we really didnt want to do, we were very much looking forward to visiting the Azores which we heard great things about.
You also said ' But at the point where you feel you "risked your life", well, then it's likely that all sorts of things might happen such as, well...remembering things as much worse than they really were, for starters'. At no point have I risked my life sailing or said I have, nor have I exaggerated anything, if the weather was bad or thinngs broke I say so.
' But here i think exaggeration is unproductive and unhelpful to others, and I wish you wouldn't do it'. I wish you wouldn't make things up and start living in the real world.
What are you going to make up next?
If you think 1 fatality every 15 BASE jumps isn't putting life at risk you are living in cloud cuckoo land. The reason we didnt come back over the Atlantic was on our blog but you chose to ingnore it and say 'it's a massive deal to you', it wasn't. We were 100NM from Antigua heading to the Azores when the furling gear committed suicide. We turned back and went into St Martin to buy a new one which also needed the genoa recut and a different sized bolt rope. By the time alll the work was done it was into hurricane season and we didn't want to take the risk of crossing. We had to leave that year because of family illness, so we shipped the boat which we really didnt want to do, we were very much looking forward to visiting the Azores which we heard great things about.
You also said ' But at the point where you feel you "risked your life", well, then it's likely that all sorts of things might happen such as, well...remembering things as much worse than they really were, for starters'. At no point have I risked my life sailing or said I have, nor have I exaggerated anything, if the weather was bad or thinngs broke I say so.
' But here i think exaggeration is unproductive and unhelpful to others, and I wish you wouldn't do it'. I wish you wouldn't make things up and start living in the real world.
What are you going to make up next?
tcm
...
Um, I imagine that the furling gear "broke", not "committed suicide", but I think we're beginning to get the idea.
Especially on a ketch such as Kelly's Eye, one would really hope that a furling gear breakage should not mean aborting the entire trip. Even if jammed solid, one could set a very conservatively-rolled foresail, useable in even the (incredibly unlikely) conditions that you could imagine....?
(thinks - "the conditions he could imagine" hmmm...) okay, okay, cancel that - I perfectly understand your decision to abort.
Summary for others - As per the general advice here, a night-time reef is a sure-fire way of feeling and being okay regardless. Or, if you have suitable crew and/or want to maintain speed at night and praps not spend most or even all of the hours of darkness being under-canvassed, then it is entirely possible to fly bigger sails and even a suitable spinnaker (e.g. vented Parasailor, heavyweight solid sym etc) throughout.
You stand a better chance of dodging the squalls on port tack - usually heading SW, cos the squalls tend to travel towards the NW. If you have moonlight, the sky to the SW becomes dark and star-free. If blind/radarless, you will get advance warning of squall arrival at least five mins in advance (and more likely 10-15 mins) from the wind increasing a little and veering - altho it'll do the same if the squall doesn't actually come overhead. Moments before the squall arrives there is often a discernible change in temperature - a cooler low-level sea level wind. As the squall arrives overhead, the first downpour and general wind is the highest. Rule of thumb is that the maximum wind speed will LESS than double under a squall, usually much less. ARC advice is that's it's another 15 knots, so if it was brisk 20kts then bet on 35 max.
You can reduce apparent wind speed for just those first few minutes by motoring - which of course wd allow you to check radar. Unlike UK weather systems, the squall is very short-lived and the sea conditions don't change dramatically. It's not too scary (usually no lightning on that E_W trip to carib) and as others here suggest, you can use the opportunity to have a nice free freshwater shower which is practical and jolly fun, thus again easing the mood. Calling squalls "rain clouds" is another way to reduce worry, cos that's what they are.
If you are a bit apprehensive, that's fine, sensible...but there is no need to be afraid IMHO. The 200-250 boat ARC fleet will make the trip fairly uneventfully as they always do, and so will five to ten times as many Not-ARCies too. So there is no use in over-emphasising and transmitting additional unnecessary caution or even fear to others here or elsewhere later. Nor is it helpful to increasingly exaggerate the dangers and conditions to aggrandise the achievement, esp when the facts indicates that, really, it's okay. Of course, if you've done it and don't fancy it again for whatever reason, no problem, praps sail back in May-June ish or go elsewhere - or just get the boat shipped back to UK and even put it up for sale like KE has done, ok? But unlike him - do it quietly, okay? Cos if you later exaggerate the ooh arg conditions of your single transat, and even if you say hah you weren't there TCM so how do you know? - then I'm afraid I will continue to say er well steady on, no, it's not as bad you are now saying, and it esp wasn't that bad in 2006 etc, and I will do this regardless of how many increasingly stormtastic stories you post. I've done ten transats, and there's others done twice that or more - one guy frinstance 20 times single-handed in a 28 footer. So it really can't be that bad, can it? No. Nuff said i think.
Especially on a ketch such as Kelly's Eye, one would really hope that a furling gear breakage should not mean aborting the entire trip. Even if jammed solid, one could set a very conservatively-rolled foresail, useable in even the (incredibly unlikely) conditions that you could imagine....?
(thinks - "the conditions he could imagine" hmmm...) okay, okay, cancel that - I perfectly understand your decision to abort.
Summary for others - As per the general advice here, a night-time reef is a sure-fire way of feeling and being okay regardless. Or, if you have suitable crew and/or want to maintain speed at night and praps not spend most or even all of the hours of darkness being under-canvassed, then it is entirely possible to fly bigger sails and even a suitable spinnaker (e.g. vented Parasailor, heavyweight solid sym etc) throughout.
You stand a better chance of dodging the squalls on port tack - usually heading SW, cos the squalls tend to travel towards the NW. If you have moonlight, the sky to the SW becomes dark and star-free. If blind/radarless, you will get advance warning of squall arrival at least five mins in advance (and more likely 10-15 mins) from the wind increasing a little and veering - altho it'll do the same if the squall doesn't actually come overhead. Moments before the squall arrives there is often a discernible change in temperature - a cooler low-level sea level wind. As the squall arrives overhead, the first downpour and general wind is the highest. Rule of thumb is that the maximum wind speed will LESS than double under a squall, usually much less. ARC advice is that's it's another 15 knots, so if it was brisk 20kts then bet on 35 max.
You can reduce apparent wind speed for just those first few minutes by motoring - which of course wd allow you to check radar. Unlike UK weather systems, the squall is very short-lived and the sea conditions don't change dramatically. It's not too scary (usually no lightning on that E_W trip to carib) and as others here suggest, you can use the opportunity to have a nice free freshwater shower which is practical and jolly fun, thus again easing the mood. Calling squalls "rain clouds" is another way to reduce worry, cos that's what they are.
If you are a bit apprehensive, that's fine, sensible...but there is no need to be afraid IMHO. The 200-250 boat ARC fleet will make the trip fairly uneventfully as they always do, and so will five to ten times as many Not-ARCies too. So there is no use in over-emphasising and transmitting additional unnecessary caution or even fear to others here or elsewhere later. Nor is it helpful to increasingly exaggerate the dangers and conditions to aggrandise the achievement, esp when the facts indicates that, really, it's okay. Of course, if you've done it and don't fancy it again for whatever reason, no problem, praps sail back in May-June ish or go elsewhere - or just get the boat shipped back to UK and even put it up for sale like KE has done, ok? But unlike him - do it quietly, okay? Cos if you later exaggerate the ooh arg conditions of your single transat, and even if you say hah you weren't there TCM so how do you know? - then I'm afraid I will continue to say er well steady on, no, it's not as bad you are now saying, and it esp wasn't that bad in 2006 etc, and I will do this regardless of how many increasingly stormtastic stories you post. I've done ten transats, and there's others done twice that or more - one guy frinstance 20 times single-handed in a 28 footer. So it really can't be that bad, can it? No. Nuff said i think.
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Conachair
Guest
Back to the top....
From Uk to Brazil and back, I didn't ccome asross a single squall which was anywhere close to anything to worry about. A blast of wind at the leading edge then less rain than you would like. From that I reckon the doomsday ones are very thin on the ground.
Or was I just increadably lucky?
Or not, some more rain is usually welcome
Tradewinds
Well-Known Member
Gawd, I'm glad I didn't write a blog about my travels backin the 90s . In fact I'm glad there was no internet such as we have today. No on-board emails and apart from our SSB no communications at all with home until we reached the next destination when we'd make a very expensive (& short) phone call.
When I crossed the Atlantic (only the once) from the CVs to Barbados we had an excellent passage. Winds were generally consistent, the odd 'squall' at night but we saw these coming thanks to the radar and adjusted sail accordingly (we were husband & wife + 2 small children aged 3 & 6).
My observations: Strongish winds and big seas are much more acceptable (fun?) in warm sparkling waters with deep blue skies. At night the wind seems to 'gain' a few knots in its strength when in fact it was probably no different from the wind we'd had before the sun went down. It's all down to perception.
It's all part of the adventure anyway - best thing is to get out there and do it.
Much more dangerous coastal sailing IMO.
. In fact I'm glad there was no internet such as we have today. No on-board emails and apart from our SSB no communications at all with home until we reached the next destination when we'd make a very expensive (& short) phone call.When I crossed the Atlantic (only the once) from the CVs to Barbados we had an excellent passage. Winds were generally consistent, the odd 'squall' at night but we saw these coming thanks to the radar and adjusted sail accordingly (we were husband & wife + 2 small children aged 3 & 6).
My observations: Strongish winds and big seas are much more acceptable (fun?) in warm sparkling waters with deep blue skies. At night the wind seems to 'gain' a few knots in its strength when in fact it was probably no different from the wind we'd had before the sun went down. It's all down to perception.
It's all part of the adventure anyway - best thing is to get out there and do it.
Much more dangerous coastal sailing IMO
.Rhapsode
Active Member
Squalls
Gary,
You don’t say where you intend sailing so we may not be talking about the same thing: I have crossed the Atlantic ITCZ many times and the Pacific one less frequently in my working life. There are squalls and there are squalls. Mostly they are modest affairs which can usually easily be seen and will provide a welcome boost to progress.
Less frequently they can produce strong winds very rapidly. Again they can usually be seen well in advance giving plenty of time to prepare. These are unlikely to present a problem if you anticipate them and are well reefed down.
At times of strong convectional activity you may see waterspouts as vortices drop down from the cloud base to meet the sea. These are obviously to be avoided. Use your engine if needs be.
Lightning is not pleasant and obviously best avoided.
I echo the comments of others who recommend the use of your radar if you have one.
I would also suggest that you have no need to be ‘running scared’. A little dose of fearfulness is no bad thing on a small boat in the middle of an ocean but properly reefed and with an eye on the weather crossing an ITCZ is a fabulous experience and one well worth undertaking in a small boat.
Enjoy!
Gary,
You don’t say where you intend sailing so we may not be talking about the same thing: I have crossed the Atlantic ITCZ many times and the Pacific one less frequently in my working life. There are squalls and there are squalls. Mostly they are modest affairs which can usually easily be seen and will provide a welcome boost to progress.
Less frequently they can produce strong winds very rapidly. Again they can usually be seen well in advance giving plenty of time to prepare. These are unlikely to present a problem if you anticipate them and are well reefed down.
At times of strong convectional activity you may see waterspouts as vortices drop down from the cloud base to meet the sea. These are obviously to be avoided. Use your engine if needs be.
Lightning is not pleasant and obviously best avoided.
I echo the comments of others who recommend the use of your radar if you have one.
I would also suggest that you have no need to be ‘running scared’. A little dose of fearfulness is no bad thing on a small boat in the middle of an ocean but properly reefed and with an eye on the weather crossing an ITCZ is a fabulous experience and one well worth undertaking in a small boat.
Enjoy!
jmac
Well-Known Member
Ho hum... I saw what I'm told was a White squall once - crossing the Atlantic. It came from astern like the rest and happily just missed us. The sea was flattened and steaming with the wind from it - there was no cloud and no warning other than the steaming, flat sea that caused me to 'double take'. It was moving very fast and we just had time to furl everything before it passed down the starboard side about 1/4 mile away. Crossing the Atlantic it pays to sit looking aft!
On another note, and slightly off topic, someone said they wouldn't run their radar at night because of power. Night is when you need it (just like any other time you can't see)! I recently avoided a large, unlit hazard to navigation because I saw it on radar and changed course. It would have been a disaster had we hit it - I'm guessing it was the size of a bus. So if you have insufficient power to use the radar to clear your course from time to time, buy more batteries!
On another note, and slightly off topic, someone said they wouldn't run their radar at night because of power. Night is when you need it (just like any other time you can't see)! I recently avoided a large, unlit hazard to navigation because I saw it on radar and changed course. It would have been a disaster had we hit it - I'm guessing it was the size of a bus. So if you have insufficient power to use the radar to clear your course from time to time, buy more batteries!
wytco0
Well-Known Member
Sorry to poke my nose into an interesting thread, when I used to have a PPL I worried about lightning, a couple of times I was caught in storms where there was lightning present, it wasn't nice due to the bumps but the lightning was never very close to the aircraft, however it seemed to be impossible to guess where the lightning would be next, I just tried to fly to the brightest bit of sky and out of the storm as quickly as possible.
But in a boat being a high point is the likelihood of being hit by lightning higher? even if it is, is there anything that you can do to reduce the change of a strike?
I am assuming no radar or stormscope to give you an early warning and a chance to change course.
