Spot the best boat design

[MapisM]

Assuming (which is obviously not 100% true, particularly for the second, but take them for what they are - assumptions) that:
- the proportions are to scale;
- the boats are, other than for the internal layout and size, comparable (same price/engines/performance)
Which would be your choice, and why?

 

[[2068]]

The second one, as there is going to be more headroom and space around (my) owners cabin berth.

dv.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Fairline 58 Squadron

Fairline 55 Squadron

 

[MapisM]

Hey, that wasn't my question!
...would have been too easy either, just looking at the pic name.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

better layout for the new 55 Squadie definitly

but as the videos and what some peeps who helmed the boat told me it plans very high about 19 knots and has a high ride, and apparently tabs dont help much as then it feels dragging
the saloon is also impressive on the 55 Squadron among the best in its range with may be the only boat to duel it is the Azimut 58
then as all boats you have to board them

 

[jfm]

Well you know my views Mapis!

The Sq58 is better. For a boat that you fly down to in the Med, and trash for 3 days, then fly home leaving someone to wash lots of towels and beds, you NEED at utility room. And if you want to cruise for a week with 6 adults and store food and give everyone clean towels daily and clean sheets every couple of days, again you NEED at utility room. The Sq58 has that, the 55 doesn't

The 55 is fine for UK style boating where the owner does the laundry and stuff or takes it home, but not for serious heavy-use boating

A lot of this depends how much you care about the central owners cabin. I don't, and that's part of the reason for my preference for the 58. If there were no "cost" then yes I'l have the central owners cabin, but I'm not prepared to make the trade offs that it requires (in a 55/58er)

Also the aft crew cabin is a bit bigger on Sq58. It also has a much better flybridge

In fact, right now, if I were buying a new boat and it came down to the Sq55 or 58, at pretty much the same money and same engines, I'd definitely buy the 58, despite the fact it is a 6 yrs old design. (In fact, i think I will.)

Very timely post Mapis. Today the Sq58 production line was "officially" closed. The last boat, hull 207, has just been finished and wheeled out of the shed. Starting next week, the production line is changing to another model. That they have sold 207 of a boat that shows what a great design it is, overall. Quite a number of Sq58 owners have traded in for new Sq58, which is pretty unusual in the world of boats but speaks volumes for how good you learn the design is when you live with the boat for a few years

Incidentally, and sorry to drift your thread, though the new 55 has a nice modern interior, the 6-year old design 58 doesn't look too shabby, especially in the new matt oak wood (of which they have only built about 4 - too many owners imho still ordered the traditional dark wood)

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

207 boats is fantastic and following the old 55 Squadron, and older 56/59 Squadron, this shows the 58 Squadron was among the best (if not) flybridge yachts ever built in the UK in recent times

so far my preferred recent UK FB yacht is the 68 Squadron

the 55 looks good but I think from what I saw on pictures it wants to be a loads of things, but I may be wrong
the saloon of new 55 is fantastic,

 

[MapisM]

Well I was hoping to collect some feedbacks before throwing in my opinion, but I also wish to quickly gather as much views as possible, so I'll throw in also my thoughts, hoping to stimulate the discussion a bit.

First of all, my aim was exactly to understand if and how much the more modern center cabin layout is relevant in boaters views (which at the end affects the demand, and thus the boat perspective value).
And so far, the center cabin is clearly a winner (sorry jfm for not counting your view, but you're a tad biased... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif).
Now, in spite of that, personally I see much more cons than pros in the 55 layout compared to the 58.
First of all, the master bedroom is placed in the wrong position in the 55. Center cabins are nice as long as the bed is in the center and aligned with the boat, both for comfort at anchor and air circulation (you must keep the bathroom door open to circulate air, in the 55 layout).
Secondly, one of the most interesting advantages of the center cabin layout is the possibility to directly access an utility room and - through it - the engine room, creating an additional watertight compartment at the same time. Which is not the case with the 55, though tbh I've only seen that solution on long range trawlers, so far.
Thirdly, jfm has a good point re.the availability of an internal utility room, regardless of its access.
The only advantages which still the 55 master cabin has over the 58 are: lower splash noise at anchor and glamourous sea view through the big windows. The importance of the first depends on everyone's sensibility of course, whilst the latter imho is just a matter of fashion, 'cause those windows are useless for any cabin usage I can think of. If anything, they're an additional cleaning problem, as if boats wouldn't have enough of that already.

There are a few other points, aside from the cabins layout.
1) the semi-hidden galley of the 58 is both nicer and more functional;
2) the 55 has no internal flybridge access (that alone would be enough to nix the boat on the spot, for myself);
3) I agree with PY that the 55 saloon is stunning, judging by the pics. It seems even wider than in the 58, though it's maybe a photographic effect.
4) On the other hand, I also agree with him that (judging from some clips, in this case) the 55 ride attitude is very bad. The 58 is still far from a Camuffo for instance, but it is way better than the 55. The 55 gives looks like they just cut the aft part of the 58 hull, loosing the additional lift on the stern...!?

Glad to hear any oher views, also from anyone who doesn't have hands-on experience, but just sees/judges those boats from a MoBoer perspective.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

nice points Mapis and I second the most of them, especially the one in the head in the master cabin for the owner in the 55, but also what you say about the position and ventialtion

I dont agree on the galley, this galley down feature has always been the defect in the 90s flybridge boats IMO, ok the 58 Squadie is better to others, but it still tucked in
I personally prefare a galley up as the Azimut 55 introduced in 2000, and now followed by the new Az 58 and 55 Squadron, but a better preferred solution is the one Ferretti are making, with the galley astern, and the worst preposition IMO is the one from Princess with the galley on the lower cabin deck in the way of the master stateroom entrance for all 50.54 and 58 models, but then the Princ have a better master cabin compared to the Fairlines
it looks that in some boats, designers make them without the galley and then in the last bit they remember about it....

then my preferred solution would be a seperate galley up with the door and another door to the deck like used on San Lorenzo 62 or old SL 57, Canados 58, Tecnomarine 58/62, Pos 55 Technema etc etc

your solution of the engine room entrance sounds interesting, I think I saw it once on a VZ 18 or a Maiora 20 in Genoa, so may be it is not used only on trawlers, but then these 2 are less production boats compared to PrAzFaFe etcetc

the internal staircase seems a big debate, it seems not much of importance lately, used to be a selling item for Ferretti in the past, what I know that is that it does not get used much as I thought, I personally like it on the sport fisherman type boats, when they have an enclosed bridge with helm only up, in that case it cannot be missing, but somehow with med flybridges sub -60 ft, I think it is more a design element then a practical one

 

[oceanfroggie]

The SECOND one by a country mile. Because of FULL BEAM owners cabin amidships.

We dislike forward master cabins, because of wave noise, organ loft steps up to elevated island berth, lack of view out large windows from island berth. Assume 2nd boat has nice big windows at eye level in full beam master, which will be bright and airey and bed does not require an acrobat to get up into it.

 

[Whitelighter]

Nice looking boat you got there JFM. I like the lighter wood.

 

[Nick_H]

I think the opposite about the internal stair, it's more a practical feature than a design one. Without it, the designer can increase the size of the saloon and/or dinette, and make room for galley up, that's why it's deleted on lots of newer boats. But lots of people who have the internal stair wouldn't live without it, because it makes the flybridge feel much more part of the boat, and it's easier and safer to get food and drinks under way. The other benefit not so often mentioned relates to cooling. With no air con you can open the hatch to allow a flow of air through the saloon, and the warm air naturally rises out through the hatch. With air con, you can leave the hatch open and the cool air sinks so it does not escape like it would if you have to leave the patio doors open for easy movement between the galley and fly.

 

[jfm]

Agree most of those points Mapis

Hey I'm not biased. I chose the Sq58 back in 2004 for all its features - I didn't have to. What's more, last week I paid a deposit on a new Sq58 (one of the last few to be built - the oak one in the above pics, delivery Jan2009), but I didn't have to, I could have bought anything else within a ~£1m budget yet I specifically chose the Sq58 above all the others incl the Azi58. So I'm not boiased in supporting the Sq58 design

I'm quite surprised how many folk care muchly about central owners cabins on 55-58 boats. Sure there's nothing wrong with them but how much time do you really spend in them? You spend loads of time everywhere else on a boat but cabins are too claustrophobic to spend any serious time in them when you're awake. Basically you sleep in them and shag in them, in the dark, and otherwise if you're awake you aren't in them. So, while a central owners cabin is nice, it aint worth (imho) making big trade offs (like utility room) for. As for wave noise that is personal preference. I can sleep through a nuclear explosion so I have no problem with waves at anchor, but for folks who do care about that then yes the central cabin is important. Though, on the Sq58 there is aperfectly nice port side double bed cabin with no wave noise

Ref acrobatics mentioned in someone's post above, you do not have to climb into the forward owner's cabin bed on the Sq58. It's a normal bed height. Climbing happens on say sub 45foot boats with narrower bows

I agree houghn's comment on 2nd staircase. You use them a lot in practice. As much as the aft staircase, for sure. I'd hate to lose it, which is another reason I just bought another Sq58. Remeber on San Lorenzos they have no aft staircase on some models (eg the current 72) only a forward staircase

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

interesting JFM
so how is it one chooses to rebuy the same boat model?
I see it very strange, but somehow it happens

 

[jfm]

[ QUOTE ]
interesting JFM
so how is it one chooses to rebuy the same boat model?
I see it very strange, but somehow it happens

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that strange PY! My current boat is now 5 years old and I want a new one. Not for any sensible reasons, but becuase I prefer a new one with latest electronics and also I dont have the spare time to spend on (possibly) increased maintenance during years 6-10 of my boat's life

I have a 5m berth in antibes and either I buy a boat to fit that, or buy a bigger berth which means my trade in is a £1.5m++ project. I dont want to spend that kind of money in the current economy. So I decided to buy a 5m wide boat, ie a 55-60footer.

Out of all the boats in that size I think the Sq58 is the best. There are lots of very inferior boats, eg the new Aicon 58 and the Sealine T60 - both terrible design failures imho. I did think hard about a trawler yacht (Selene etc) but their lousy fuel economy put me off. They're still very nice machines though. So back to planing boats, and the one that got closest (for me) to the Sq58 was the Azi 58.

It's all a matter of personal choice of course but FWIW the reasons I chose the Sq58 not Azi58 were.

1. Azi has great cental owners cabin buy "pays" for that with loss of utility room/crew cabin. In the Sq58 I am having a custom utility room with 60cm washing machine, 60cm separate tumble drier, freezer, Tecma WC, single crew bed. and the forward owner's cabin isn't shabby!

2. Engine room on Azi is too cramped becuase they put the fuel tanks at sides of engines. In Sq58 the fuel is ahead of the engines, which uses up 1m of boat length but gives lots more space

3. Azi has pathetic 630litres of fresh water. Sq has 1080litres. That is quite a big concern for me, when I need to be able to spend a couple of days on anchor in the med in summer when there are no berths available

4. I prefer the volvo 800 engines to the MAN800s

5. I dont know for sure how well built the Azi is. It's maybe ok but some of the engineering seems light to me and potentially flexible/creaky. Not sure, just a hunch. In contrast, I know the Sq58 is a very well built boat. My old one doesn't have a single squeak or creak after 5 years/9000nm in some big seas

6. Upper helm on Sq58 (where I spend a LOT of time!) is loads better than the Azi. Even in standard format the Sq58 helm is great but I'm having 3 of the Recaro seats the same as the (two) fitted to the Sq55 upper helm. I dunno if you have sat in these seats at a boat show but they are fantastic.

7. The Sq58 is a bit of a classic and is easy to sell on. My new one is one of the last few to be built and one of only 4 or so with oak wood, and will (just a guess0 be a good seller in the future. Used Azis seem a bit harder to sell on. Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree

Not sure this is very rational and it doesn't need to be but, since you asked, that's why I bought another sq58!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

nice points re the difference between Az 58 and Squad 58 and your choice
Its kinda cool when one goes and explains his personal reason for chosing boat x versus boat y etc etc, so I guess it all falls to one needs and how he views boating

in fact the only thing I comment is about the resale of used Azimuts, which as for my and yachtworld records the 55 is the best seller in its size as used and new, I think close to 300 have been built of the 55 in production from fall 2000, second best seller in this size is the 58 Squadron, followed by Ferretti 53/530 which was produced for a 100 plus units,
the new Princess fly are quite new so one cannot really comment on them on the used market

congrats for the new Squadron 58

 

[BartW]

9000nm in 5 years time?
how do you do that ?

 

[jfm]

Thanks PY. Yeah you are right - choosing a boat is partly objective things like engineering but a lot of it is just down to pure personal preference!

Wow, I am amazed Azi have built 300 of the 55. I see very few of them around. If I had to guess I would have said something like 100 or so. I'm amazed to hear they have done 300. Very interesting (and, to me, surprising. It's not a great boat imho. You can only just fit 4 people around the flybr table for lunch!)

 

[jfm]

[ QUOTE ]
9000nm in 5 years time?
how do you do that ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised you're surprised! 5 full seasons, 1800nm per season. I use the boat 35-40 weekends a year, local trips plus a few longer (300-400nm) cruises, so you soon get to 1800/year

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

yep 58 Sq fly is bigger in its category, something that if you like you cannot miss

to be honest I see 55 everywhere, add to that they sell a lot in the states and you have 300 easily
I think fly of 55 is ok, and I like a lot the helm design and ergonomics but then from my perspective I see very few people up top
but obviously the selling march for the 55 has always been about the full beam owners cabin, which when presented in Genoa 2000 was unique, and stayed so for quite some time
real decent competition came from Aicon with the 56 in 2002, but in that period Aic was a starting brand altough 130 plus have been sold of the 56 as of fall 2007, a succesful number for a young builder
I think in engineering there is mot much dividing the Fairline from Azimut, it is sometimes little details like the tankage in the side for the 55 better in central for the 58 Sq but not all that much
I can make a list here but it would not be really appropiate