neil_s
Well-Known Member
You can do it! Only took me sixteen years to summon up the nerve to have a try!
Spinnaker sheeting
- Thread starter Greenheart
- Start date
ip485
Well-Known Member
You dont necessarily need to sail it.
As long as there is a very light wind hoisting on the trolley will be fine and you can see how it all works. Sat and even tied down to the trolley and the loads are quite low AS LONG as it is a very gentle breeze just enough to fill the kite. If it starts to tip over release the sheet just as you would when sailing.
As long as there is a very light wind hoisting on the trolley will be fine and you can see how it all works. Sat and even tied down to the trolley and the loads are quite low AS LONG as it is a very gentle breeze just enough to fill the kite. If it starts to tip over release the sheet just as you would when sailing.
Iain C
Well-Known Member
Dan
With respect there are comments on here that are totally wrong. Please ignore some of them. Let me explain a little more around this photo.
On a tight reach, you want the spinnaker pole to be a few inches off the forestay. So, in the above shot, the pink and white twinner is pulled hard in. You can see the fraying where it's always in the same position in the twinner cleat which you can see a tiny bit of at the top partly hidden by the shroud.
The stopper knot visible an inch behind the bobble in the shot on the dayglo sheet won't go through the bobble. In turn, the bobble won't go through the ring. So, with the kite up and the pole set, that system prevents the pole hitting the forestay, and the windward clew of the kite is just where it should be. Clearly, measurements are critical here and you'll need trial and error. And if the pole does hit the forestay, a pull up on the pole uphaul (which absolutely must be low stretch line and NOT bungee!!!!) will get it off the forestay. This may need tweaking depending on wind conditions.
At the clews of the kite, you need a totally repeatable knot and measurement. Mine is no more than a half hitch which goes through the cringle and then back on itself. Do not use bowlines as every time you tie it the effective guy length will change. Clip the pole onto the guy, in front of the ring and bobble, and it should be able to slide up the guy to touch the kite clew without hitting any knots stopping it short of the clew.
So, what about a broader reach or run where you need the pole back a bit? Simple, drop the guy into the top of the reaching cleat (the big Harken one in front of the blue pro-grip.) Job done.
The cleats near your thwart are NOT for the guy. They are simply to tuck the sheets into once you have dropped the kite, to stop them trailing in the water. Drop the kite, pull the slack out of the sheets, tuck the tails in. They are known as "tidy cleats". Obviously, because of where they are, as soon as you pull on the sheet because you are using it, the sheet pings straight out of the cleat.
You never have cleats for "in use" sheets on a dinghy. You should constantly be tweaking the sheet. That said, I understand in your cruising dinghy, why you might want to have them for occasional use.
Sheets are continusous so you don't lose the ends, and no matter where you pick it up you have the right bit of string in your hand. Twinners are single piece partly so you can grab them anywhere, and partly because if they were two piece you'd have too much freedom of movement for the sheets and end up hooking the pole under the sheets, or sheets over the boom and other such nasties.
So, in a nutshell...
Tight reach
Guy-twinner on hard
Sheet-twinner blown-sheet played in hand
Pole-kept just off forestay by pole height
Run/broad reach
Guy-twinner on hard and guy in reaching cleat
Sheet-played by hand
Pole-slightly lower height wise than a reach, in a straight line with the boom if viewed looking down on the boat from above
Hope that helps!
***EDIT-there is a guy breaking a Fireball on the Facebook "Dinghies and Dinghy Bits for Sale" group. His prices are very reasonable. Why don't you buy the sheets and every fitting they go near?
With respect there are comments on here that are totally wrong. Please ignore some of them. Let me explain a little more around this photo.
On a tight reach, you want the spinnaker pole to be a few inches off the forestay. So, in the above shot, the pink and white twinner is pulled hard in. You can see the fraying where it's always in the same position in the twinner cleat which you can see a tiny bit of at the top partly hidden by the shroud.
The stopper knot visible an inch behind the bobble in the shot on the dayglo sheet won't go through the bobble. In turn, the bobble won't go through the ring. So, with the kite up and the pole set, that system prevents the pole hitting the forestay, and the windward clew of the kite is just where it should be. Clearly, measurements are critical here and you'll need trial and error. And if the pole does hit the forestay, a pull up on the pole uphaul (which absolutely must be low stretch line and NOT bungee!!!!) will get it off the forestay. This may need tweaking depending on wind conditions.
At the clews of the kite, you need a totally repeatable knot and measurement. Mine is no more than a half hitch which goes through the cringle and then back on itself. Do not use bowlines as every time you tie it the effective guy length will change. Clip the pole onto the guy, in front of the ring and bobble, and it should be able to slide up the guy to touch the kite clew without hitting any knots stopping it short of the clew.
So, what about a broader reach or run where you need the pole back a bit? Simple, drop the guy into the top of the reaching cleat (the big Harken one in front of the blue pro-grip.) Job done.
The cleats near your thwart are NOT for the guy. They are simply to tuck the sheets into once you have dropped the kite, to stop them trailing in the water. Drop the kite, pull the slack out of the sheets, tuck the tails in. They are known as "tidy cleats". Obviously, because of where they are, as soon as you pull on the sheet because you are using it, the sheet pings straight out of the cleat.
You never have cleats for "in use" sheets on a dinghy. You should constantly be tweaking the sheet. That said, I understand in your cruising dinghy, why you might want to have them for occasional use.
Sheets are continusous so you don't lose the ends, and no matter where you pick it up you have the right bit of string in your hand. Twinners are single piece partly so you can grab them anywhere, and partly because if they were two piece you'd have too much freedom of movement for the sheets and end up hooking the pole under the sheets, or sheets over the boom and other such nasties.
So, in a nutshell...
Tight reach
Guy-twinner on hard
Sheet-twinner blown-sheet played in hand
Pole-kept just off forestay by pole height
Run/broad reach
Guy-twinner on hard and guy in reaching cleat
Sheet-played by hand
Pole-slightly lower height wise than a reach, in a straight line with the boom if viewed looking down on the boat from above
Hope that helps!
***EDIT-there is a guy breaking a Fireball on the Facebook "Dinghies and Dinghy Bits for Sale" group. His prices are very reasonable. Why don't you buy the sheets and every fitting they go near?
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Iain C
Well-Known Member
^click for video
This is me helming my Fireball GBR14474...notice how the twinner is holding the kite pole just off the forestay, and the crew is well back just playing the sheet? The line going from the end of pole to the mast base is the pole downhaul to stop the pole "skying"
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anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-Known Member
Apologies Iain and Dan - that cleat looked a perfect place to put the guy. I had no idea that the twinning system had any other purpose than to pull the sheet down to become a guy - and it's set me thinking...
One aspect that I don't quite get is where you're hoisting and dropping the sail. I do it from the lee shrouds and so need the guy to be able to get round that far - how do you get round that - long twinning line? It's late and I'm probably being dim.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
This is becoming a saga. :biggrin-new: Each time I respond, it takes a while...and after submitting it, I find there is more to reply to!
I'll try to take it all in. Thanks to Neil S and ip485 for encouragement...actually, I did hoist it all ashore today, for a test...read on...
Certainly, I do trust you. So...I guess I need another adjustable tackle (with adjustment possible from both sidedecks), mounted on the outside front of the mast...and presumably it can't be adjusted without simultaneous easing of the pole-downhaul...so it'll be a two-handed task? :moody:
Sorry I'm in a bad mood. Trying the spinnaker ashore today, the stainless mast-loop that holds the pole, popped its rivets under minimal strain. It'll be easy to re-rivet, and I'm glad it broke ashore, not at sea, but I had been almost at the point of seeing it all work.
Before the breakage, the kite was filling, but I remembered somebody here saying that the clews ought to be level, and mine weren't...
...I pulled the pole downhaul to lower that side, but the clew opposite was still dipping lower. Maybe just because in the light wind, the sail wasn't filling as it should?
Iain, I will be referring, often, to your post. So much info, which is making new sense of things I've been looking at, blindly, for six summers. What you call the "reaching cleat" is exactly as on my Osprey - but I had assumed it was for cleating the twinning line!
As for 'tidy-cleats'...if you're pulling my leg, I forgive you, but I believe you anyway. I'm just surprised that my boat's previous owner equipped her so completely in some places, and not at all in others...like the total absence of pole up/downhaul fittings, other than the ring 8ft above the deck on the front of the mast.
I put in the stand-up blocks to take the adjustment of the downhaul to the sidedecks, thinking that'd be job done - but now the whole system needs replicating, upside down, so the pole can lift too... :hopeless:
I can see the virtue of the bobbles in the guy (although I thought I could also see the virtue of not using them). But if the bobbles prevent the guy ever being allowed to run out, why is it necessary to have the sheet/guy so long?
According to my basic calculation, choosing midpoint 'x' as my hand holding the endless line as I sit on the weather gunwale, the sheet runs, say, 5ft to the other sidedeck, then 8ft to the aft turning block, then perhaps 10ft forward to the lee clew...
...meanwhile, from my hand, after a bit of slack on the floor, the guy runs from the windward sidedeck block, 8ft to the aft turning block, and assuming I'm beam reaching, probably a clear 20ft via the twinning line ring to the pole end, out past the forestay....
...ouch...it really does need to be 60ft long, doesn't it.
And so...I need 20m of sheet in a colour unlike anything else aboard; two antal rings for the twinning line; more distinct-coloured non-stretch line for the uphaul (does the downhaul have to be low-stretch too?)...and a bit of cleverness to rig the pole-uphaul.
Thanks for the tip about the chap breaking the Fireball for spares...SWMBO has Facebook, I'll take a look...although I'll enjoy shopping for the new bits anyway. :encouragement:
I'll try to take it all in. Thanks to Neil S and ip485 for encouragement...actually, I did hoist it all ashore today, for a test...read on...
Certainly, I do trust you. So...I guess I need another adjustable tackle (with adjustment possible from both sidedecks), mounted on the outside front of the mast...and presumably it can't be adjusted without simultaneous easing of the pole-downhaul...so it'll be a two-handed task? :moody:
Sorry I'm in a bad mood. Trying the spinnaker ashore today, the stainless mast-loop that holds the pole, popped its rivets under minimal strain. It'll be easy to re-rivet, and I'm glad it broke ashore, not at sea, but I had been almost at the point of seeing it all work.
Before the breakage, the kite was filling, but I remembered somebody here saying that the clews ought to be level, and mine weren't...
...I pulled the pole downhaul to lower that side, but the clew opposite was still dipping lower. Maybe just because in the light wind, the sail wasn't filling as it should?
Iain, I will be referring, often, to your post. So much info, which is making new sense of things I've been looking at, blindly, for six summers. What you call the "reaching cleat" is exactly as on my Osprey - but I had assumed it was for cleating the twinning line!
As for 'tidy-cleats'...if you're pulling my leg, I forgive you, but I believe you anyway. I'm just surprised that my boat's previous owner equipped her so completely in some places, and not at all in others...like the total absence of pole up/downhaul fittings, other than the ring 8ft above the deck on the front of the mast.
I put in the stand-up blocks to take the adjustment of the downhaul to the sidedecks, thinking that'd be job done - but now the whole system needs replicating, upside down, so the pole can lift too... :hopeless:
I can see the virtue of the bobbles in the guy (although I thought I could also see the virtue of not using them). But if the bobbles prevent the guy ever being allowed to run out, why is it necessary to have the sheet/guy so long?
According to my basic calculation, choosing midpoint 'x' as my hand holding the endless line as I sit on the weather gunwale, the sheet runs, say, 5ft to the other sidedeck, then 8ft to the aft turning block, then perhaps 10ft forward to the lee clew...
...meanwhile, from my hand, after a bit of slack on the floor, the guy runs from the windward sidedeck block, 8ft to the aft turning block, and assuming I'm beam reaching, probably a clear 20ft via the twinning line ring to the pole end, out past the forestay....
...ouch...it really does need to be 60ft long, doesn't it.
And so...I need 20m of sheet in a colour unlike anything else aboard; two antal rings for the twinning line; more distinct-coloured non-stretch line for the uphaul (does the downhaul have to be low-stretch too?)...and a bit of cleverness to rig the pole-uphaul.
Thanks for the tip about the chap breaking the Fireball for spares...SWMBO has Facebook, I'll take a look...although I'll enjoy shopping for the new bits anyway. :encouragement:
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lw395
Well-Known Member
On some classes, the cleats near the thwart absolutely are for the guy in use, as you may want to let off the twinning line to bring the pole back on a run. In fact some good boats in some classes won't have the cleat on the gunwhale right behind the twinning line.
Soem classes, the helm needs to ease the guy to head up and the crew will be in the way and sat on the guy, holding it down into the cleat....
There are many permutations, what works best varies. Copying from one hull to another can be difficult as the ergonomics vary and odd bits of structure always seem to be in the way.
Soem classes, the helm needs to ease the guy to head up and the crew will be in the way and sat on the guy, holding it down into the cleat....
There are many permutations, what works best varies. Copying from one hull to another can be difficult as the ergonomics vary and odd bits of structure always seem to be in the way.
TLouth7
Well-Known Member
I agree that the bobble system looks good, especially if you already have cleats in the correct place. Do note the point about needing enough length on the twinner to get the clew round to the lee shroud for dropping into a bag.*
I am confident that one out of pole uphaul and downhaul is bungee on my Lark, but must admit I can't remember which. Perhaps you could repurpose the tackle you fitted for an uphaul, and fit a bungee downhaul?
If the bobble system/reaching cleat is not used then the windward "tidy" cleat can absolutely be used for the guy. Consider that this is well positioned for adjustment by crew sitting to windward (harder if they are trapezing, but this is also true of the reaching cleat). Given you have the reaching cleats I guess this is irrelevant (they can be used to hold the guy even if a bobble is not used), but it is not wrong.
*This issue would not apply to a Fireball with chute, but would for those with bags
I am confident that one out of pole uphaul and downhaul is bungee on my Lark, but must admit I can't remember which. Perhaps you could repurpose the tackle you fitted for an uphaul, and fit a bungee downhaul?
If the bobble system/reaching cleat is not used then the windward "tidy" cleat can absolutely be used for the guy. Consider that this is well positioned for adjustment by crew sitting to windward (harder if they are trapezing, but this is also true of the reaching cleat). Given you have the reaching cleats I guess this is irrelevant (they can be used to hold the guy even if a bobble is not used), but it is not wrong.
*This issue would not apply to a Fireball with chute, but would for those with bags
lw395
Well-Known Member
You can use the bobble/knot to set the max guy length without having cleats by the chain plates.
If the bobble is working with the twinner, the cleat is not involved.
All that is required is that the turning block is far enough aft that the knot won't hit that when that side is the sheet. That would be an issue onsome boats where the turning block is at max beam, well forwards of the transom.
I've sailed boats where the guy length is limited by knot(s) in the sheet in the middle, where you handle it. The knots hit the blocks on the side tank when the pole is on the forestay. This is only going to work with a chute.
There are endless variations. A look around the Merlins and 505's is instructional. Or bewildering!
If the bobble is working with the twinner, the cleat is not involved.
All that is required is that the turning block is far enough aft that the knot won't hit that when that side is the sheet. That would be an issue onsome boats where the turning block is at max beam, well forwards of the transom.
I've sailed boats where the guy length is limited by knot(s) in the sheet in the middle, where you handle it. The knots hit the blocks on the side tank when the pole is on the forestay. This is only going to work with a chute.
There are endless variations. A look around the Merlins and 505's is instructional. Or bewildering!
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks Mr Louth, good sense there. :encouragement:
Thanks LW, I'm getting that impression, and I'm still bewildered. I'm alternately, equally persuaded, by everything being said, by everyone.
It occurs to me, reading all the good sense spoken here, that the systems I have aboard can be interpreted for use in different ways, almost all of which are new to me anyway.
I had (mistakenly, I now believe...) always supposed that the crew's role in trimming the kite consisted mainly of tweaking the twinning line until the windward edge of the sail begins to collapse, then backing off, then tweaking again...
...whereas, I'm now interpreting that the twinning line is either on, or off - so the guy is either in use, held down to the shroud-base, or released when it is being a sheet. On that basis, the crew doesn't 'play' the twinning line, and it will surely need a dedicated cleat for the period that the guy is in use...
...so, why did my boat not have any cleat for that use? (Nor any pole uphaul/downhaul tackles or deck fittings, cleats etc.)
I'm led to suppose once again, that the camcleat beside the twinning-line fairlead was for securing that, and that the wall-mounted camcleat is indeed for securing the guy in use...
...below is an old photo (blame Photobucket if it isn't visible), from the first week I had the boat...and below that, a detail from it...
...there's the original ring attached to the twinning line, and the 'reaching cleat', which I'm now once more daring to believe was for holding the twinning line, since no other cleat is available for that requirement...
...and if I assume that the guy wasn't 'bobbled' at the twinning line, those cockpit-wall camcleats are the only place the guy could have been cleated. Now I think of it, the two tapered lines that came with the boat, which I assume were the spinn sheets, didn't have bobbles or any evidence of stopper-knots in them. Hmm...
Round and round I go...
Thanks LW, I'm getting that impression, and I'm still bewildered. I'm alternately, equally persuaded, by everything being said, by everyone.
It occurs to me, reading all the good sense spoken here, that the systems I have aboard can be interpreted for use in different ways, almost all of which are new to me anyway.
I had (mistakenly, I now believe...) always supposed that the crew's role in trimming the kite consisted mainly of tweaking the twinning line until the windward edge of the sail begins to collapse, then backing off, then tweaking again...
...whereas, I'm now interpreting that the twinning line is either on, or off - so the guy is either in use, held down to the shroud-base, or released when it is being a sheet. On that basis, the crew doesn't 'play' the twinning line, and it will surely need a dedicated cleat for the period that the guy is in use...
...so, why did my boat not have any cleat for that use? (Nor any pole uphaul/downhaul tackles or deck fittings, cleats etc.)
I'm led to suppose once again, that the camcleat beside the twinning-line fairlead was for securing that, and that the wall-mounted camcleat is indeed for securing the guy in use...
...below is an old photo (blame Photobucket if it isn't visible), from the first week I had the boat...and below that, a detail from it...
...there's the original ring attached to the twinning line, and the 'reaching cleat', which I'm now once more daring to believe was for holding the twinning line, since no other cleat is available for that requirement...
...and if I assume that the guy wasn't 'bobbled' at the twinning line, those cockpit-wall camcleats are the only place the guy could have been cleated. Now I think of it, the two tapered lines that came with the boat, which I assume were the spinn sheets, didn't have bobbles or any evidence of stopper-knots in them. Hmm...
Round and round I go...
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TLouth7
Well-Known Member
The position of those twinning line fairleads does seem to suggest the tail should head aft to the cleat on the sidedeck, rather than inboard. On the other hand the cleat looks pretty oversize for twinners...
As I understand it, you have enough hardware (excluding pole uphaul) to rig a spinnaker using the inboard cleats for the guy (optionally in conjunction with a bobble), and the sidedeck cleats for the twinning lines. Probably worth trying in this arrangement, will probably become rapidly clear if it is wrong.
The bobble method is certainly very clever, but is not universal on symmetric dinghies so it is probably not surprising there is no evidence for it being rigged previously. Personally I would leave it out while experimenting then add later if desired, but others who have experienced it first hand might disagree.
As I understand it, you have enough hardware (excluding pole uphaul) to rig a spinnaker using the inboard cleats for the guy (optionally in conjunction with a bobble), and the sidedeck cleats for the twinning lines. Probably worth trying in this arrangement, will probably become rapidly clear if it is wrong.
The bobble method is certainly very clever, but is not universal on symmetric dinghies so it is probably not surprising there is no evidence for it being rigged previously. Personally I would leave it out while experimenting then add later if desired, but others who have experienced it first hand might disagree.
lw395
Well-Known Member
If those cleats were just for the twinning lines, there would have been no need to raise them on blocks. But people do all sorts of odd things, including not finishing fitting out before the next race and leaving it like that until the boat is sold.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I was thinking, looking again at those photos. Actually it hadn't occurred to me when I posted the pics today. But that outer four inches of gunwale is solid wood, so there was no need to reinforce it with a block...the blocks are only there to lift the camcleats to align them with the guy coming through the ring. How come I'm only just seeing how obvious it all is? :hopeless:
Of course, I can see that just because the previous owner did it that way, doesn't mean it was the best way.
And, if those camcleats are to hold the guy, which they must be, some other cleats must have to hold the twinning line, otherwise the kite will pop the guy out...so where are they? Another early pic below, or not if Photobucket is down again...
...jeez, that green was awful. But...what were those black shockcord loops round the thwart? I'd forgotten them, and I removed them because I didn't see their purpose. Is it possible the cheapskate owner had used them to hold the tail of the twinning line? Or perhaps they were the 'tidy cleats'. Still doesn't answer how the twinning line was held down.
Oh my lord, now I see that big camcleat on the floor behind the traveller, which I took off years ago when I got sick of stubbing my toe on it...that is self-evidently for the spinnaker halyard, nothing to do with the sheets, what planet was I on? And that through-deck block beside the mast (which I've been using to route my genoa-furler line, for the last five years), was for the halyard. :biggrin-new:
In the same photo...there are two small fairleads on port and starboard cockpit walls...and that black line between them was definitely shockcord, I remember now...and there, tied to the shockcord, is the ring I've been assuming was for the spinnaker bridle...
...it's exactly the right size for the pole to secure it at the midpoint, yet allow it to be released by twisting 90 degrees...it must have been for the spinn pole...so what's it doing elasticated to the cockpit walls? Some kind of horrible botched-up downhaul? Oh God... almost as bad as my botched-up shockcord uphaul...:hopeless:
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anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-Known Member
I was quite taken with the bobble idea, but I'm now fairly sure that it's not quite the killer gizmo for any boat that a) doesn't sail with the pole on the forestay all the time, and b) hoists and drops by the shrouds. I also think that it's probably quite a good idea to learn spinnaker handling and trim from first principles rather than a semi-auto system.
Dan, I'm also mystified by the lack of obvious cleats for the twinning lines. On the other hand I like the raised 'reaching cleats' (which could be good guy cleats on any point of sail, because as the twin is released the cleated guy automatically pops out and becomes a free sheet. But that's semi-auto and I just said that was bad... hey ho. If you went back to my suggestion of using the tank mounted cleats for the guy you could then use Ian's reaching cleats for the twinning lines - at least until you develop a better idea.
Another q for you though. You mentioned the uphaul having to be external. Isn't there a sheave on the front of the mast somewhere a third or halfway up and a spare sheave at the bottom for the uphaul - that would be normal? Oh, and you'll need a cleat for it!
Dan, I'm also mystified by the lack of obvious cleats for the twinning lines. On the other hand I like the raised 'reaching cleats' (which could be good guy cleats on any point of sail, because as the twin is released the cleated guy automatically pops out and becomes a free sheet. But that's semi-auto and I just said that was bad... hey ho. If you went back to my suggestion of using the tank mounted cleats for the guy you could then use Ian's reaching cleats for the twinning lines - at least until you develop a better idea.
Another q for you though. You mentioned the uphaul having to be external. Isn't there a sheave on the front of the mast somewhere a third or halfway up and a spare sheave at the bottom for the uphaul - that would be normal? Oh, and you'll need a cleat for it!
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lw395
Well-Known Member
The twinning line cleats could be somewhere in the helm's domain.
Depends who does what in a gybe.
On some boats, the twinning line AKA choke or strangler, is also used to pull the sheet down a little in some conditions. Might be the helm's job to play with that if the gorilla is out on the wire?
Depends who does what in a gybe.
On some boats, the twinning line AKA choke or strangler, is also used to pull the sheet down a little in some conditions. Might be the helm's job to play with that if the gorilla is out on the wire?
Iain C
Well-Known Member
Anoccasionalyachtsman...erm...no boat sails with the pole on the forestay all the time, it just depends which was you are pointing the aforementioned boat! On a tight reach, pole forward...on a run, pole back...broad reach, somewhere between the two!
One advantage of the bobble system is that you always pull the twinner in all the way, and if the reach tightens up halfway along the crew can just ping the guy out the top of the reaching cleat and the pole goes forward to it's preset position just off the pole.
Oh, and 95% or so of Fireballs built in the last 20 years have bags not chutes and the twinner system so it's perfect for boats with kite bags at the mast. In actual fact the only Fireballs I've seen in 18 years of racing them that do not have twinning lines will be very old floppy 1980s GRP Rondars that don't actually race anyway, or 60s restoration jobs where the owner is restoring towards originality not useability.
lw395 is quite right...I have seen twinners led back to the driver on one or two boats...there's a husband and wife team I know where she is petite, and the twinners go back along the c/b case to the burly helm.
Dan you seem to massively over-thinking this. Just get 2 small cleats, screw (or bolt if you can get access) onto the side decks and you have a working twinner system. Job done.
One advantage of the bobble system is that you always pull the twinner in all the way, and if the reach tightens up halfway along the crew can just ping the guy out the top of the reaching cleat and the pole goes forward to it's preset position just off the pole.
Oh, and 95% or so of Fireballs built in the last 20 years have bags not chutes and the twinner system so it's perfect for boats with kite bags at the mast. In actual fact the only Fireballs I've seen in 18 years of racing them that do not have twinning lines will be very old floppy 1980s GRP Rondars that don't actually race anyway, or 60s restoration jobs where the owner is restoring towards originality not useability.
lw395 is quite right...I have seen twinners led back to the driver on one or two boats...there's a husband and wife team I know where she is petite, and the twinners go back along the c/b case to the burly helm.
Dan you seem to massively over-thinking this. Just get 2 small cleats, screw (or bolt if you can get access) onto the side decks and you have a working twinner system. Job done.
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-Known Member
My 'pole on the forestay all the time' was a bit tongue in cheek...! I can see why you like it, but what I still don't get is how the guy can let its clew get to the mast bag, unless the twin line is long enough to reach and even go around the forestay. I'd go for it on my boat if I'm missing something, because the attraction of having a pole that can't reach the forestay in a fluffed hoist is very attractive, but as I mentioned earlier, the friction when hauling the sheets and halyard round the forestay (when all is on the wrong side for an imminent hoist) is significant and would be too much if we're pulling a twinning line around with it.
Edit. Actually, still don't get it. The twins have to be off at the hoist, so there isn't any preventing the pole being on the forestay. Can you explain to this muppet how you hoist and drop please.
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Iain C
Well-Known Member
Leeward hoist (kite in leeward bag):
-Open bag
-Twinners off
-Driver hoists kite
-Clip pole onto guy and push out, clip to mast
-Windward twinner on
-Driver adjusts pole height which in turn adjusts distance from forestay if it's a tight reach
-Sheet on and go
-(Driver does other useful things during all of this...check the kite is all the way up, hand sheets to crew, look after the jib, ping the tidy cleats but none of that is essential)
Windward hoist (kite in windward bag):
-The same apart from the kite needs to go out past the forestay so it doesn't end up in the slot. This is either done via "pitchforking" where the crew has pushed the pole out far enough so the clew is past the forestay before hoisting, or there's a co-ordinated "3-2-1-hoist" action where the crew throws the kite forward past the forestay at the exact moment the driver hoists. Worth pointing out that the boats are equipped with a 1:2 pump halyard system, so the kite is raised with one and a half pumps on the halyard block...about 2 seconds max if you are slick.
Windward drop (you never drop to the leeward bag):
-Pole off and stow on boom
-My crew then pulls the leeward twinner on about 18" bit to stop the now flogging sheet from flicking over the end of the stowed pole/boom
-Work along the guy until the crew has the windward clew. Then along the foot of the kite until he has both clews. Shout "drop" to driver
-Driver blows halyard
-Crew tubes the kite into the windward bag...clews in first, head in last
-Close bag
-Open bag
-Twinners off
-Driver hoists kite
-Clip pole onto guy and push out, clip to mast
-Windward twinner on
-Driver adjusts pole height which in turn adjusts distance from forestay if it's a tight reach
-Sheet on and go
-(Driver does other useful things during all of this...check the kite is all the way up, hand sheets to crew, look after the jib, ping the tidy cleats but none of that is essential)
Windward hoist (kite in windward bag):
-The same apart from the kite needs to go out past the forestay so it doesn't end up in the slot. This is either done via "pitchforking" where the crew has pushed the pole out far enough so the clew is past the forestay before hoisting, or there's a co-ordinated "3-2-1-hoist" action where the crew throws the kite forward past the forestay at the exact moment the driver hoists. Worth pointing out that the boats are equipped with a 1:2 pump halyard system, so the kite is raised with one and a half pumps on the halyard block...about 2 seconds max if you are slick.
Windward drop (you never drop to the leeward bag):
-Pole off and stow on boom
-My crew then pulls the leeward twinner on about 18" bit to stop the now flogging sheet from flicking over the end of the stowed pole/boom
-Work along the guy until the crew has the windward clew. Then along the foot of the kite until he has both clews. Shout "drop" to driver
-Driver blows halyard
-Crew tubes the kite into the windward bag...clews in first, head in last
-Close bag
lw395
Well-Known Member
Kite hoist in a Merlin:
Helm: Pull halyard
Crew: Pull pole launch string
Helm: Adjust snodger
Crew: Trim sheet
Both: Overtake Fireball that's still faffing.
Helm: Pull halyard
Crew: Pull pole launch string
Helm: Adjust snodger
Crew: Trim sheet
Both: Overtake Fireball that's still faffing.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Don't forget the twinner is useful to snug the sheet down and stop the kite wobbling on those windy dead runs.
