Special marks

[Graham_Wright]

On a recent RYA approved course, I learned a few things that I took issue with (e.g. the tides are caused by the magnetic attraction between the moon and the earth's oceans).

I also learned that special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.
I have found no reference to this claimed relationship.

Can anyone verify or contradict?

 

[ylop]

On a recent RYA approved course, I learned a few things that I took issue with (e.g. the tides are caused by the magnetic attraction between the moon and the earth's oceans).

When you say recent… was it Tuesday? Cos there’s certainly an April 1st element to this.

I also learned that special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.
I have found no reference to this claimed relationship.

Can anyone verify or contradict?

News to me. Broadly there might be a correlation between big bouy / open sea / deeper water and the deeper the water the more chain the bouy has to support but it would be a VERY dangerous presumption that a large bouy = lots of water.

 

[seeSimon]

Seems the RYA have been busy recently the topic of Nav buoys?

At a recent yot club formal meeting we were told by a local expert that the RYA has prohibited the use of Cardinal and channel markers as turning marks of a race course, as it is "too dangerous" to pass the wrong side of them.
On our patch we have two seperate very large/heavy (old school) Trinity House south cardinals that we (used to?) use very regularly. They are perhaps 200m from the dangerous, isolated rock that they gaurd.
There may also be a port hand channel marker (much smaller/lighter, but you wouldn't want to hit it) that is routinely passed on the "wrong side" by very many small craft. It seems that will likely become quite problematic?

Another local expert added that we would find ourselves to be "uninsured" if we dared to pass the wrong side of such marks.

All such "new requirements" relayed verbally only, no references given.

Anyone else been told this?
I see no press releases or similar.

 

[philwebb]

On a recent RYA approved course, I learned a few things that I took issue with (e.g. the tides are caused by the magnetic attraction between the moon and the earth's oceans).

I also learned that special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.
I have found no reference to this claimed relationship.

Can anyone verify or contradict?

You should have asked the instructor if there was more effect on your steering compass when there’s a full moon!

 

[Roberto]

I also learned that special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.
I have found no reference to this claimed relationship.

IALA indicates size categories for buoys (can't remember if Cat A-B-C .. or 1-2-3..) mainly for visibility, the biggest ones being about 4-5m tall; different standard sizes can be found in any depth so I do not think there is any relationship.
Special Marks may be related to depth, see point 2.5.2.4 which otoh does not give any indication about size, I doubt very much it can be of any relevance to leisure sailing.
R1001 The IALA Maritime Buoyage System - IALA AISM

 

[Graham_Wright]

Challenging what an instructor says could prejudice the issuance of a certificate!

 

[Graham_Wright]

IALA indicates size categories for buoys (can't remember if Cat A-B-C .. or 1-2-3..) mainly for visibility, the biggest ones being about 4-5m tall; different standard sizes can be found in any depth so I do not think there is any relationship.
Special Marks may be related to depth, see point 2.5.2.4 which otoh does not give any indication about size, I doubt very much it can be of any relevance to leisure sailing.
R1001 The IALA Maritime Buoyage System - IALA AISM

That's a very good reference - thanks.

 

[DreadShips]

Seems the RYA have been busy recently the topic of Nav buoys?

At a recent yot club formal meeting we were told by a local expert that the RYA has prohibited the use of Cardinal and channel markers as turning marks of a race course, as it is "too dangerous" to pass the wrong side of them.
On our patch we have two seperate very large/heavy (old school) Trinity House south cardinals that we (used to?) use very regularly. They are perhaps 200m from the dangerous, isolated rock that they gaurd.
There may also be a port hand channel marker (much smaller/lighter, but you wouldn't want to hit it) that is routinely passed on the "wrong side" by very many small craft. It seems that will likely become quite problematic?

Another local expert added that we would find ourselves to be "uninsured" if we dared to pass the wrong side of such marks.

All such "new requirements" relayed verbally only, no references given.

Anyone else been told this?
I see no press releases or similar.

I can imagine there would be good reasons not to use navigation marks in some circumstances (a lateral in a busy channel, for example), but the RYA race management guide covers round the cans racing with no such admonition to avoid them.

Edit - on checking again it specifically refers to using fixed marks. Hardly the move of an organisation who wanted to discourage it!

 

[Lucky Duck]

The list of Solent racing marks notes some restrictions on their use

https://www.scra.org.uk/assets/documents/pr-marks-2025-07feb25.pdf

 

[justanothersailboat]

There is much that is good in principle about the RYA course contents, and some - many? - of their instructors are really good; but some really are not! I've had both excellent and awful instruction under the banner of RYA courses and have come to the conclusion that their quality control is weak.

There are far too many people repeating weird myths in this pursuit already without instructors joining in!

 

[rotrax]

There is much that is good in principle about the RYA course contents, and some - many? - of their instructors are really good; but some really are not! I've had both excellent and awful instruction under the banner of RYA courses and have come to the conclusion that their quality control is weak.

There are far too many people repeating weird myths in this pursuit already without instructors joining in!

I was a professional instructor in the motor and motor cycle industry for over twelve years in total.

Among my colleagues were fantastic instructors, instructors who 'hit the spot' with the course members who held on to their every word.

One or two others were of a different style. They were more interested in letting the course members know how clever THEY were, rather than helping the students improve their skills and knowlege.

This, unfortunately, is human nature. Unsupervised instructors have the option of straying from the course objectives from time to time. Some instructors will have a particular drum to beat.

Difficult to police in most cases. I do not believe it is a significant problem in sail training. All the training my wife and I had was first class. It was, however, some time ago.

 

[Blueboatman]

You should have asked the instructor if there was more effect on your steeringcompass when there’s a full moon!

Ah yes, the pesky Pelorus Perigee Peril.

Only comes out at night in early April though , afaik

 

[ylop]

There is much that is good in principle about the RYA course contents, and some - many? - of their instructors are really good; but some really are not! I've had both excellent and awful instruction under the banner of RYA courses and have come to the conclusion that their quality control is weak.

The same of almost all training. It’s virtually impossible to really know what your instructors do once they have passed the qualification process. You can moderate them - but content and delivery styles when someone is watching you may not be the same as when alone. With formally examined courses it may be possible to spot trends - eg none of your student got Q3 right then probably that’s a teaching issue; but of course exams will only sample the syllabus and if some of your students read a book or had prior knowledge it looks like only part of the class got it wrong.

 

[DreadShips]

Consistency is particularly tricky for practical courses where there can be a range of techniques with not much more than personal preference to recommend them. Some people like to use separate ropes for springs and lines, for instance, whilst others prefer to combine them.

It was interesting to be able to compare my comp crew experience with other people's who were doing CC when I did DS. I don't think either instructor produced better or worse crew, but there was a definite bias towards different aspects of sailing and seamanship - the weather also played a part in what could be covered and in what depth.

 

[Mark-1]

On a recent RYA approved course, I learned a few things that I took issue with (e.g. the tides are caused by the magnetic attraction between the moon and the earth's oceans).

I also learned that special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.
I have found no reference to this claimed relationship.

Can anyone verify or contradict?

I'm curious. You've clearly been around a bit, I'm struggling to image what qual you'd need? Instructor Course to support your club? ICC? Safety Boat/PB2 for a club? Supervising someone else's course? First Aid Course that went way off piste?

I don't want you to dox yourself, obvs.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Variation in coverage in practicals is mostly fine. It's the classroom courses where... variation in factuality is not great. Other institutions seem to do better.

 

[ylop]

Consistency is particularly tricky for practical courses where there can be a range of techniques with not much more than personal preference to recommend them. Some people like to use separate ropes for springs and lines, for instance, whilst others prefer to combine them.

I would expect good instructors to understand the pro’s and con’s of the options and whilst they may have a preference to one, to accommodate people who prefer alternatives. But it is IMHO the risk with instructors who do fast track training at one centre - they learn one way of doing things and may assume it’s the only or best way.

Other institutions seem to do better.

Interested which other institutions do better? Do they have the range of subject matters and number of centres the RYA do?

I used to be involved in First Aid training - definitely not consistent quality, potentially for similar reasons - lots of people need a course to tick a box and so pick the cheapest.

School teachers don’t always deliver 100% accurate content, and event if it is absolutely right (at least according to the marking scheme) we surely all remember teachers who were good/bad.

I’ve received training in paddle sports form BCU/SCA affiliated trainers and they were no more regimented or necessarily good than RYA water sports instructors.

I’ve experienced quite a variety of RYA training over the years - none of it was bad but some instructors were definitely better than others. I can’t think of any training I’ve had in any walk of life from different people which was universally excellent.

 

[boomerangben]

I must admit to considering it safe to go the wrong side of a buoy given that the ship used to install the buoy is a lot bigger than me and its skipper isn’t going to get that close to danger. However that doesn’t mean I would be very far on the wrong side ( a hand full of metres perhaps). On the other hand small buoys need small boats to install and therefore need more respect.

 

[William_H]

Consistency is particularly tricky for practical courses where there can be a range of techniques with not much more than personal preference to recommend them. Some people like to use separate ropes for springs and lines, for instance, whilst others prefer to combine them.

It was interesting to be able to compare my comp crew experience with other people's who were doing CC when I did DS. I don't think either instructor produced better or worse crew, but there was a definite bias towards different aspects of sailing and seamanship - the weather also played a part in what could be covered and in what depth.

Yes after many years of sail training in my little 21ft boat I conclude that practical training is about just getting the student on to the boat and have them discover for themselves how things should be done. Yachting Australia would dictate how a person winches in a jib sheet. But in my opinion on a small boat it is a question of how the crew positions them selves that is comfortable. I like to face the winch square knees pressed on edge of seat. Others find it more comfortable sitting winching sideways. I like to, let them discover what suits best. YA says one foot on floor one on seat facing forward. Doesn't suit me.
On another question of how to handle main sheet in a gybe. YA dictate pull the sheet in as boom passes overhead then release to let the friction of the tackle slow the boom down. Fine for a big boat. I find it best on.a small boat to grab the bulk of the sheet tackle and pull it across cushioning the arrival at the other side. In practice the gybe is normally just let it swing across. ok for a small boat.
So much of training is about discovery. Of course you have to guide to avert harm in some cases. But there is no place for a dictator. Sail training is an interesting art often beyond just being a good sailor. ol'will
'

 

[Stemar]

the tides are caused by the magnetic attraction between the moon and the earth's oceans

special marks, i.e. those coloured yellow and generally with a cross top mark indicating a variety of items of interest, indicated also the depth of water beneath them according to their shape and size.

Was this course held on 1st April?