Spanish Boat Taxes -- A proposed joint legal study

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Tell us, Tranona...

What is your relationship with the RYA? Are you simply a member or do you take part in committee work, working groups, or maybe you are in some way remunerated by the RYA?
 
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I can move from France, Spain to Portugal and back and stay UK resident even if I don't spend 24 hours in the UK in a year (since failure of a 183 day test leaves you falling back on other things such as banks, tax payments, address, centre of your life, citizenship, etc and for me that means the UK).

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The only ways I know to be resident in the UK is either 183 days or more in one tax year or average 93 days or more.
Why do you want to be UK tax resident?
Become a tax nomad. Pay tax nowhere. I love it.
 
David - I think you are becoming obsessed! When have I ever mentioned RYA on this thread. I am just an ordinary member - about 20 years I think. Read the magazine, get a 5% discount on my marina fees in Gouvia - and thats about it!

Why would you think it is any different? I sometimes speak up in their defence because I think they do a pretty good job, and some of the criticism like yours is either unjustified or very peculiar to individuals making that criticism.

Back to the issue, just as the advice the RYA gives on taking and keeping your boat abroad satisfies the needs of the overwhelming majority, the majority do not seem to be concerned in the same way as you are. Of course you may well be right and the world is just about to cave in for them, but there is no positive sign that this is the case. On the other hand they may see the threat and have decided that a "small" levy is acceptable as a price to keep their boat there.

Who knows? as I pointed out it does not cause enough concern that they are leaping to air it on a forum!

Now you have explained why you want the information I am even more amazed that you are getting so worked up about it. Hundreds of people do what you are planning to do every year without any problem. So my suggestion is just do it and when you get to Portugal you can forget all about it and enjoy life!
 
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...I sometimes speak up in their (the RYA's) defence because I think they do a pretty good job,

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Which helps to explain your huge number of posts in this thread, on a subject that does not concern you personally, given that my original post was somewhat critical of the RYA, perhaps?
 
Obsession now turning to paranoia!

For the very last time my interest in this thread is nothing to do with the RYA.

And it does concern me to an extent because my plans are to bring my boat back from Greece to the UK next year and one obvious choice is the route you seem to be taking. I am not particularly attracted to the Spanish coastal scene, partly influenced by what I have read on this forum. So our preferred choice is through the canals. I know this is not open to everyone and also not without its problems, but seems to meet our requirements.

Just to reiterate, none of my posts have said anything about the RYA - that is a figment of your imagination or maybe your mechanism for avoiding the valid points I am making.
 
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.. maybe your mechanism for avoiding the valid points I am making.

[/ QUOTE ]We need to bring this silly exchange to a quick close. What were those "valid points", exactly?
 
They are all there if you bother to read them rather than dismissing them.

I often find when there is a breakdown in communications it is time for at least one of the parties to look in the mirror!
 
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They are all there if you bother to read them rather than dismissing them.

[/ QUOTE ]If you'd made any valid points you'd have been keen to list them.
 
Fascinating stuff and I can't contain myself any longer; and I probably know a fair bit about UK flagged boats operating in Spain (and in the Valencia region where the Spanish are now taking this tax situation more seriously).

All you need to know if the right person to talk to about all legal matters, fiscal, Tax ,etc - that person is Carmen, or her daughter Ana Rodríguez. (you will probably have to pay - but then this is what this thread is about)

Just one page from their web-site: http://www.aitamar.com/diseño-de-yates.aspx

So now you have the lead to get the answers to whatever questions you want to ask /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
That looks very promising, thanks! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'll give her a call in the next few days.
 
I do hope they are very patient ladies and also fully qualified lawyers otherwise you won't be able to believe anything they say!

Good luck with this avenue and I hope you get what you want.
 
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I do hope they are very patient ladies and also fully qualified lawyers otherwise you won't be able to believe anything they say!

Good luck with this avenue and I hope you get what you want.

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They looked after us very well as we went through the mascinations of achieving a licence to charter a UK boat in Spain and keeping us up date in various amendments and as licence management was changing from Alicante to Valencia in 2008. (no way was I prepared to fall foul of the Guardia Civil!). Carmen is one good lady who knows her stuff.

Re matriculation tax: I last saw her in February in Denia where I said we were going to depart Spanish waters; she winked and said I was making a very wise decision.
 
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The IESDMT is not, however, a registration (matriculation) tax, it is an environmental tax.

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Errrm. Well to be exact, it's an environmental tax which is due when any vehicle (boat, car, aeroplane) is registered ('matriculated') in Spain, so that's splitting hairs.

Back to basics. This law also applies to EU registered vehicles (cars) entering Spain. A few points:

1. Re-registeration is required immediately on 'entry'. There are 30 days within which to pay up the pollution tax . . .

So, how do EU visitors who enter Spain with their EU registered cars stand? (or boats).

2. The answer lies in the definition of 'entry', defined in the law as when 'tourist permission or temporary import expires'. For EU registered vehicles this is an indefinite period as long as (paraphrasing):

a. You're not tax resident (183 days personal residency in a calendar year)
b. You don't have a principal place of business in Spain
c. The vehicle is only used by you

3. The answer you get from a lawyer depends on the question you ask. If you ask 'When is this tax payable?' you can get an accurate reply which says 'you are liable on entry, payable within within 30 days

4. If you ask 'what is the definition of entry?', he will give you a string of conditions. I have paraphrased some relevant ones above.

Bear in mind that the answer you got implies that all visiting cars are immediately liable to this tax. All my investigations show this highly improbable situation is not the case, and is well outside the provisions of EU law on EU registered vehicles.

Since I am not a lawyer you may dismiss this as my personal opinion and therefore completely invalid. If so, I would like an explanation from you as to why EU cars entering Spain are not immediately subject to re-registration, or why it is that boats and cars, covered by the same law, are treated differently.

I am sure you will get these answers by paying for more legal advice. Alternatively, read the law carefully. It's all there. You don't have to be a lawyer to read.

And incidentally, you quote my statement 'CA paper may have mistakes' as proof that it does have mistakes, and is therefore invalid. That is an appalling misreading of what I meant, and typical of your methods of trashing people and organisations and what they say by using selective misreadings of their words.
 
Well said JIm!

However, it is unlikely it will change his view because he has been told all this already and prefers the advice he gets from his lawyer.

However, as you will see from the latest posts he has been directed to a new source so he can spend his time arguing with them rather than forumites!
 
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Errrm. Well to be exact, it's an environmental tax which is due when any vehicle (boat, car, aeroplane) is registered ('matriculated') in Spain, so that's splitting hairs.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, it's not "splitting hairs" it's your misreading of the information that has been published here several times. Would you like to provide some link or quote to support that?

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Back to basics. This law also applies to EU registered vehicles (cars) entering Spain. A few points:

1. Re-registeration is required immediately on 'entry'. There are 30 days within which to pay up the pollution tax . . .

So, how do EU visitors who enter Spain with their EU registered cars stand? (or boats).

[/ QUOTE ] It seems that cars, boats and planes all become liable after thirty days. It seems that (to date) this has not been collected, or at least, very often.

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2. The answer lies in the definition of 'entry', defined in the law as when 'tourist permission or temporary import expires'. For EU registered vehicles this is an indefinite period as long as (paraphrasing):

a. You're not tax resident (183 days personal residency in a calendar year)
b. You don't have a principal place of business in Spain
c. The vehicle is only used by you

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What's the source of that?

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3. The answer you get from a lawyer depends on the question you ask.

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Indeed. I asked my Spanish lawyer whether I would be liable for this tax as a non-resident and he said that my residency is irrelevant. Once the boat has been in Spain for 30 days the tax is due. He conceded that from his investigations it was seldom collected but that is the legal situation, he said.

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4. If you ask 'what is the definition of entry?', he will give you a string of conditions. I have paraphrased some relevant ones above.

[/ QUOTE ] My lawyer didn't give a "string of conditions". He said thirty days after arrival in Spanish waters. Period.

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Bear in mind that the answer you got implies that all visiting cars are immediately liable to this tax. All my investigations show this highly improbable

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Fine, then bring your yacht to Spain and post the same "advice". We might have more confidence.

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Since I am not a lawyer you may dismiss this as my personal opinion

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I think that most serious business-minded people came to that conclusion long ago.

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I would like an explanation from you as to why EU cars entering Spain are not immediately subject to re-registration, or why it is that boats and cars, covered by the same law, are treated differently.

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Why? I am not a lawyer and I know nothing about cars. All I have done is to repeat professional legal advice that I have received.

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You don't have to be a lawyer to read.

[/ QUOTE ] No, but if you are going to read, interpret and give advice on the law, you should be a lawyer.

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And incidentally, you quote my statement 'CA paper may have mistakes' as proof that it does have mistakes, and is therefore invalid. That is an appalling misreading of what I meant, and typical of your methods of trashing people and organisations and what they say by using selective misreadings of their words.

[/ QUOTE ] Surely if you state that your document might be incorrect it is fair to assume that you are less than 100% confident in it? I've lost your point, here and I don't know what you mean by 'selected misreadings' -- I quoted you verbatim /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
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Quote:
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2. The answer lies in the definition of 'entry', defined in the law as when 'tourist permission or temporary import expires'. For EU registered vehicles this is an indefinite period as long as (paraphrasing):

a. You're not tax resident (183 days personal residency in a calendar year)
b. You don't have a principal place of business in Spain
c. The vehicle is only used by you


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What's the source of that?



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Provided by Plomong on two other threads. Translate this extract:

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Primero.–Modificación de la Ley 38/1992, de 28 de
diciembre, de Impuestos Especiales.

Con efectos a partir del día 1 de enero de 2008 se introducen las siguientes modificaciones en la Ley 38/1992, de 28 de diciembre, de Impuestos Especiales:

Uno. Se modifican los apartados 1 y 2 del artículo 65, que quedarán redactados de la siguiente manera:

«1. Estarán sujetas al impuesto:

a) La primera matriculación definitiva en España de vehículos, nuevos o usados, provistos de motor para su propulsión, excepto la de los que se citan a continuación:

<bla-bla-bla>

d) Estará sujeta al impuesto la circulación o utilización en España de los medios de transporte a que se refieren los apartados anteriores, cuando no se haya solicitado su matriculación definitiva en España conforme a lo previsto en la disposición adicional primera, dentro del plazo de los 30 días siguientes al inicio de su utilización en España. Este plazo se extenderá a 60 días cuando se trate de medios de transporte que se utilicen en España como consecuencia del traslado de la residencia habitual de su titular al territorio español siempre que resulte de aplicación la exención contemplada en el apartado 1.l) del artículo 66.

A estos efectos, se considerarán como fechas de inicio de su circulación o utilización en España las siguientes:
1.º Si se trata de medios de transporte que han estado acogidos a los regímenes de importación temporal o de matrícula turística, la fecha de abandono o extinción de dichos regímenes.
2.º En el resto de los casos, la fecha de la introducción del medio de transporte en España. Si dicha fecha no constase fehacientemente, se considerará como fecha de inicio de su utilización la que resulte ser posterior de las dos siguientes:
1’. Fecha de adquisición del medio de transporte.
2’. Fecha desde la cual se considera al interesado residente en España o titular de un establecimiento situado en España.


[/ QUOTE ] Particularly note the item in italics. 'If the means of transport have been imported temporarily or on tourist registration, when those regimes no longer apply'

'Temporary importation' is the norm for all EU registered and owned vehicles entering Spain which are not used for business.
 
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Particularly note the item in italics. 'If the means of transport have been imported temporarily or on tourist registration, when those regimes no longer apply'

'Temporary importation' is the norm for all EU registered and owned vehicles entering Spain which are not used for business.

[/ QUOTE ]So your legal advice is based on a non-professional translation of a legal document, posted by another forum member?

And this is just your personal interpretation of it? Given that a professional Spanish lawyer has give a totally opposite interpretation, I cannot understand how you can continue to argue about this. You have not even given any definition of "imported temporarily". The lawyers say that it means 30 days.

I cannot understand why you feel it necessary to be so dogmatic about your own non-legal opinion when professional legal advice does not agree. Why? I just don't understand WHY you are so sure that you know better than a Spanish lawyer. And, given that you don't have any yachts, cars, planes, boats, homes, or work in Spain, and you don't even SPEAK Spanish, why you set yourself up to be a specialist on Spanish law. Why do you continue to dismiss a professional Spanish lawyer's advice and insist that your advice is correct?
 
Come now, David.

Your stance is based on ONE opinion from ONE Spanish lawyer. It is at odds with a commonsense reading of the legislation. It is at odds with every other piece of advice on the subject from Spanish and UK sources. It is at odds with what actually happens (or not).

If ever there was a case of everybody being out of step but you, this is it.

You, and your lawyer, may well of course be right. In other words, as I advised your friend Toad if you want to disprove what is the accepted view of what is right you have to provide evidence. So far the ONLY piece of evidence you have provided is from your lawyer, and I suspect as you paid him, he may well have told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

It is not up to Jim or anybody else to convince you they are right, but for you to convince them they are wrong.

Pretty basic stuff, really!

And by the way I suggested to Toad that he read Popper. Maybe you could use your time more productively doing the same.
 
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