Spanish Boat Taxes -- A proposed joint legal study

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[ QUOTE ]
Since you have absolutely no personal interest in Spanish Taxes, no legal expertise and no knowledge of the subject one can only conclude that your lengthy involvement in this thread has been nothing more than pro-RYA stirring.

[/ QUOTE ] Tut tut. Naughty boy. Argumentum ad hominem again. Attack the man to undermine the argument . . .
 
[ QUOTE ]
Argumentum ad hominem again

[/ QUOTE ]You'll get a boppium in abdomen if you don't watch out /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Hi guys,
bit sad the thread got personal but I know how easily it happens!!!

As a point of interest the spanish goverment divolves laws/adminsitration down to local authoritiies. Locally they may decide which laws/legislation to impose. This partly explains why you get certain rules being imposed in one area and not in another.

The following is an extrat from a page on my web site SPANISH LAWS FOR BOATS...

Because I intend moving to Spain, as a resident, I have been in touch with Spanish Legal Authorities to find out the situation with bringing my boat into the country for UK citizens.

If you are just sailing into Spain and intend being in Spanish Waters for less than 180 days = 6 months in any year:
then really you have no problems.
You must carry on board your registration certificate (SSR or 'Part 1' for UK boats) your passports, a copy of your insurance documentation and a VHF operators licence. These rules apply to all EU countries for a EU registered boat with EU owner/skipper.
No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered. (The UK does not require any qualification to 'drive' a boat so you do not need to carry one.) You may choose to, because not all Spanish Customs/Guardia Civil know that is the UK law! To have a ICC or Yachtmaster is useful. Authorities from any EU country can require 'proof' that VAT has been paid on the vessel.

If you have property in Spain and a boat in a local port but are personally in Spain for less than 180 days - 6 months of the year, then you also do not have a problem. It is your 'non residence', not the fact the boat is in Spanish waters that counts. It is sensible to have the boat 'precintado' or sealed by Spanish Customs when you are 'away' in order to prove the less than 180 days of residence/use of the boat. (The onus of 'proof' is on you to prove you were not in the country - it is not on the Spanish Authorities!)

If you intend sailing into Spain and spending more than 180 days = 6 months in one year - even if you leave and re-enter during the year, then different rules/laws apply:
If you are land based or living in your boat in Spain for more than 180 days in any year then the Spanish Authorities will consider you to be resident in Spain.  (You will remain domicile in your country of origin (e.g. UK) but for Spanish legal and tax purposes you are considered to be a resident of Spain. (Actually the same rule applies to France/Netherlands and other EU countries)
If you own a property in Spain and/or spend more than 180 days = 6 months in Spain in any one year then the Spanish authorities consider you to be resident in Spain

THIS IS HOW THE SPANISH LAW EXPECTS RESIDENTS TO BEHAVE WITH THEIR BOATS:-
As a Spanish resident you are not allowed to own a 'foreign flagged' boat.
So you must re-register your boat as Spanish. (Probably need help with this - here)
You must pay 'Matriculation' tax of 16% of the value of the boat. (If you apply at least 2 months before bringing the boat into Spanish Waters, then you can be exempt from this tax, on payment of a smallish fee) - Probably need help with this - If it is not possible to prove that VAT has already been paid then you would need to pay VAT as well. (should be able to prove that it has been paid fairly easily)
You will be liable for the annual Tarifa G-5 tax which is effectively a tax on having a boat and varies with the power of the engine and the size of the boat. Bit like the old 'light dues'. - exactly the same tax exists in France and several other EU countries. It is payable locally. The 'average' cost for a 12 metre sail boat is probably around 600€ annually.

A Spanish resident must have a 'Spanish boat license' to 'drive' the boat. (Yachtmaster or other non Spanish certificates are not acceptable.) A Spanish resident may not 'skipper' a foreign flagged boat so passing the 'ownership' to a relative in the UK is a non starter!)
There are lots of Spanish Sailing Schools and it is possible to do the 'theory' by post or on the internet. Many of the 'instructors' speak English and most of the words and expressions can be 'worked out' fairly easily.

There is more on my site - www.michaelbriant.com if you are interested as well as details of how you can get more advice and help from a Spanish Lawyer company who specialise in boaty things..

fair winds

Michael
 
[ QUOTE ]


Because I intend moving to Spain, as a resident, I have been in touch with Spanish Legal Authorities to find out the situation with bringing my boat into the country for UK citizens.



[/ QUOTE ]
Hello Michael and thanks for this post.

The question here is what legal authority has given you this information? Do you have it in writing?

Alex Chumillas has posted helpfully on the forum before, but what is needed to put an end to the uncertainty is a Statement from the Spanish Government.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have been in touch with Spanish Legal Authorities[ QUOTE ]


Yes, but are they REPUTABLE Authorites? Lemain paid a fortune (300 Euro) of his OWN MONEY to get the very best.
 
Michael, it's good to hear from you again...haven't seen you posting recently or maybe elsewhere. Hope all is well; you must be pleased to be getting back on the water again.

What you've described is what seems to (have been)/(is)? the case until recently. There was a change in the law effective January 2008. Are you confident that your information reflects the change in the law effective 2008? Any references for us to follow up on?

A number of us are still looking for the next step forward. If you have a trusted lawyer, do please give me details.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you have a trusted lawyer, do please give me details.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? So you can vet them to see if they match your exacting standards?

Of course he has a trusted lawyer. Once again you throw doubt on to somebody who has posted facts which are far more understandable, sensible and credible than you ever manage.

Why can't you just believe in what somebody else says for once? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

Why can't you just believe in what somebody else says for once? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Well, it goes like this...

Spanish policeman:- "Your vessel is embargoed until you regularise your tax situation"
Me: "Why, I read on the Internet that this tax is not due from people in my position"
Spanish policeman:- "No, you have to pay the tax, and I have put a sticker on your boat forbidding you to leave the harbour until you have sorted out your affairs with the authorities"

It has been happening for years but not often. It seems to be happening more often. We don't really know what the law actually says.

Do you see the problem, now?
 
[ QUOTE ]


Spanish policeman:- "Your vessel is embargoed until you regularise your tax situation"


[/ QUOTE ]

You: "Why, I was told by a reputable lawyer, who charged me a fortune that this tax is not due from people in my position"
Spanish policeman:- "No, you have to pay the tax, and I have put a sticker on your boat forbidding you to leave the harbour until you have sorted out your affairs with the authorities"

Please, where is the difference?
 
Well, there is no difference at the outset. But if you really did have proper legal advice you call your lawyer and say "You told me that I could stay here for x months with no problems and they have put a sticker on my boat, can you get onto the case, please?". One would hope that a half-decent lawyer would get things moving.

However, the real question is "what is the legal situation". Even after paying for legal advice I am not sure -- hence this thread (see the very first post, it explains where I am coming from).

What is pretty sure is that if I was done on day 31 and called my lawyer, he'd say "I told you this could happen so what do you want me to do about it?".

But we have been over all this time, and time and time, so I end here and leave others to speculate. Anyone else who is interested in the study, please contact me via the email on the first post or PM.
 
[ QUOTE ]
But if you really did have proper legal advice you call your lawyer and say "You told me that I could stay here for x months with no problems and they have put a sticker on my boat, can you get onto the case, please?". One would hope that a half-decent lawyer would get things moving.


[/ QUOTE ]
He probably would help you as long as you pay him more money but why would you want a lawyer represent you that has already been proven wrong?
EDIT: It is of course possible that the guy putting the sticker on is wrong and your new lawyer is correct.
 
Thank you to the people who welcomed me back - nice to be posting again... sometimes
[ QUOTE ]
What you've described is what seems to (have been)/(is)? the case until recently. There was a change in the law effective January 2008. Are you confident that your information reflects the change in the law effective 2008? Any references for us to follow up on?


[/ QUOTE ]
I have been in touch with several sources as moving Paw Paw to Spain not to mention my home is a very serious matter and I have carried out the research in the last weeks so it is up to date... Not plugging it but the full results are on my web site... The following are the results from the Spanish lawyers I mentioned. They are in the boaty business so posssibly more informed than the average 'Jose Spanish Lawyer'

For the re-flagging, matriculation and registering of a UK boat into a Spanish resident boat I have been in touch with:
 Barcelona Tax & Law

Alex Chumillas
Economista - Gestor Administrativo
C/ Villarroel, 212, 1º 2ª
08036 Barcelona
Teléfono: +34 934442137
Móvil : +34 667663521
Fax : +34 940469418
e-mail: alex@barcelonataxlaw.es
website: www.barcelonataxlaw.es

They tell me:-

If you are planning to move permanently into Spain you must keep in mind that:
(I assume that the boat is going to be used for private use)
 
Matriculation tax might be requested on the boat after 6 months, unless you apply for exemption before moving to Spain.
It would be necessary to change the flag of the boat into Spanish one.
It would be necessary you to obtain Spanish license to sail your boat.


I have also found out details of doing the various courses required under Spanish Law for Spanish Residents/Citizens.... Looks doable I think.

Of course none of the above applies if you are just visiting and spend less than 6 months of the year in Spain. In that case you are just a EU visitor.... Your boat may spend unlimited time in Spain it is your presence that decides if you are resident or not. BE VERY AWARE - YOU ARE REQUIRED TO PROOVE THAT YOU HAVE SPENT LESS THAN 6 MONTHS IN SPAIN IN ANY 12 MONTH PERIOD... the Spanish authorites have the right to demand proof you are not in fact resident... Bit of a catch 22 situation... more on the web site


Hope this is helpful

regards

Michael
 
Thanks for that, Michael, and good to have you back. We (i.e. in the forum in various threads) have received that advice from Alex in the past. I don't believe that there is any dispute about the situation when relocating to Spain, or once you have become a resident (de facto by staying longer than 183 days, or some other means). The problem is that we have legal advice stating that in law IESDMT (that is nothing to do with matriculation, the 'M' stands for 'Methodes', not 'Matriculation' but it has caused huge confusion here) becomes payable 30 days after the vehicle enters Spain (or Spanish waters, for a boat). I am not aware of a single case where that has happened but the lawyer says that he investigated and was told that it is seldom collected. The point of this thread has been to get support for further professional legal advice to clear this up since clearly if that's what the law says, then they might suddenly decide to enforce it --- or they might not, of course.

Alex is a gestor, not a solicitor which is not an 'attack' or criticism of him or his abilities. Indeed, his advice might prove to be correct, I don't know, and if I did, I wouldn't be wasting my time getting further advice. However, just as a paramedic or a nurse is not a doctor, so a gestor is not a solicitor. If I was seriously worried about my health, I'd opt for the doctor.
 
Hi again,

Really do not want to get caught up in long discussion but:- I consulted - i.e. paid Spanish solicitors for legal advice on bringing Paw Paw into Spain... I got a lot of information and law sent to me and on that basis went to a Spanish legal boaty sited to find out what it would all cost - the infromation they sent me mirrored the advice already given and is as posted above by me.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that there is any dispute about the situation when relocating to Spain, or once you have become a resident (de facto by staying longer than 183 days, or some other means). The problem is that we have legal advice stating that in law IESDMT (that is nothing to do with matriculation, the 'M' stands for 'Methodes', not 'Matriculation' but it has caused huge confusion here) becomes payable 30 days after the vehicle enters Spain (or Spanish waters, for a boat).

[/ QUOTE ]

As I posted before (and reptition is tedious) under EU and Spanish law you may bring a boat into Spanish waters if you are from another EU country without being liable for any tax or other dues provided VAT has been paid on it.....

If the vehical/boat is NOT from an EU country or has not had VAT paid on it then the IESDMT and other things become due after 30 days.

I think a lot of these problems with understanding Spanish lawyers replies come from the question asked. 'Am I liable for any tax if I bring my boat into Spain'? will result in yes.

The same question with 'it is UK registered, VAT paid, Will only be in Spanish waters for 3 months, the skipper and crew are all UK residents' with get a different response... That is why it is better to go to experts in boaty things who have been around for years and have an excellent reputation than a 'Jose' Lawyer who does not get regulaly involved in boaty things... In my opinion

regards

Michael
 
May I just check my interpretation:

1. The discussion relates ONLY to cruising yachtsmen visiting Spain for less than 183 days in any year (calendar or otherwise) - not to Residents or would be Residents of Spain.

2. MichaelE (with considerable experience as a liveaboard)has provided evidence (may not quite satisfy your legal standards) that there are no restrictions, taxes, levies or other encumbrances on visiting yachtsmen PROVIDED that THEY (not the vessel) are in Spain for less than 183 days in any given year.

3. You, through your reputable lawyer, believe that vessels are vulnerable to seizure after just 30 days in Spain. Yet, there is no evidence of ANY vessel, of ANY EU Nationality being impounded. There are NO reports of any individual being fined after 30 days. If you DO know of any, please PM the details as I would be extremely interested to hear the circumstances.

If the above is correct I really, really, really have a problem accepting your findings. Do you honestly, in your heart, believe that the Spanish Government would be so stupid and shortsighted to impose such ridiculous restrictions for the sake of the pittance of a tax they might raise?

If such a restriction was placed on visiting yachts surely the first to stand up and complain would be the marinas themselves. Do you imagine that the German owned Marina de Denia would take this lying down? I think not. Have you talked to your marina staff friends at Almerimar? If every foreign owned boat were restricted to 30 days they would probably be bankrupt.

Or is there some sort of hidden agenda of which I am not aware? If so, please tell.
 
No, you have misquoted me. Having posted my position dozens of time in this thread already, I am going to ask you to read the thread. Otherwise the discussion kicks off from the beginning again like a very tedious roundabout.
 
Hi Michael

Good to have your contributions which are in line with advice provided by many other sources.

However, as you will find if you read this whole thread. Lemain has received different advice, which he currently relies on for his decisions in relation to taking his boat to Spain. No amount of advice or evidence has so far swayed him from his position.

His response to advice is to label some of the advisers as, among other things, "retired bods", "stirrers" and most improbably as "in the pay of the RYA".

It is clear that he is not satisfied with the explanations of others, which of course is his perogative, but if you don't want to put into one of the above categories, then I suggest you quit while the going is good.
 
Michael,

You've stated the situation well. It is identical to the situation which occurs on temporary import of cars. [ QUOTE ]
In that case you are just a EU visitor.... Your boat may spend unlimited time in Spain it is your presence that decides if you are resident or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Misunderstandings have arisen because some people have read 're-registration must occur (plus the associated tax payments) within 30 days of entering Spain'. True, but they don't accept the definition of 'entering Spain' in the relevant law. The key definition (with backups for exceptions) is 'on expiry of temporary import permission'. Temporary import permission is unlimited for EU vehicles, as long as the owners are bona fide visitors (ie, don't become taxable in Spain etc).

Your warning about onus of proof is very important.
 
No, I am not going to re-read the thread. I do not believe I have mis-quoted you. However, as you obviously think I am thick, please answer this straightforward question:

"Do you, with due regard to the legal opinion you have paid for, believe that the Guardia Civil have legal authority to place a Precinto for a tax demand on any EU, non Spanish vessel belonging to a non Spanish resident after 30 days in Country?"

Yes or no.

And please - just yes or no.

Thank you.
 
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