Spanish Boat Taxes -- A proposed joint legal study

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My observations are to suggest there is little point in trying to get another legal opinion at this stage for the reasons I have stated.

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Fine, that's your opinion. So why are you taking part in a thread devoted to Spanish boat taxes? Given that you have already stated that you have no interest in taking your boat to Spain, why take part?

If anyone would like further discussion about what might be achieved by seeking further legal advice or has any further information to add to the discussion, please go ahead.

For those who feel, as Tranona does, that nothing further can be achieved, would they kindly bog-off from Spanish boat tax threads, and leave the issue to anyone who wishes to continue to discuss it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

People like Tranona, who have absolutely no intention or interest in taking their boats to Spain, are not going to be as concerned or interested as those of us who are either already in Spain or planning to go there. We are headed back to Spain for various reasons and it is a very real and significant financial issue for us.
 
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Lemain, can you not carry on your business from the Camargue?
Spain seems so overdeveloped now.

[/ QUOTE ]We are seriously looking at France as an alternative to Spain but there are some legal issues. Meanwhile we would like to be able to get the yacht back to Almerimar where the prices are good, the service is superb and we know a large number of people.
 
For those who feel, as Tranona does, that nothing further can be achieved, would they kindly bog-off from Spanish boat tax threads, and leave the issue to anyone who wishes to continue to discuss it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif



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David,

I think you need to reconsider Jim B's advice about adopting a softer tone. This wording is not made OK just because you add a smiley.

Sorry but it's time to stop being so offensive when people don't agree entirely with your position. In the past you have accused people of being trolls when all they've done is disagree with you!

If upon re-reading your posts in this and other threads you don't realise you are occasionally being offensive then it seems no advice from others can help you.

Unfortunately you will find something in this post to take issue with rather than take on board the underlying appeal - but I live in hope!

Regards,

Bob
 
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But once again, David only according to your lawyer. It is only his opinion of how he thinks the law will be applied. Until it is and the ambiguities that are there in other sources are resolved nothing will happen.


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Well said!

It seems that some persist in thinking that understanding the law is enough. The reality is to get advice both of the law and how it is applied in practice. That's the difference between good legal advice and the less good.

Many laws have unintended consequences and are not applied to the letter.

Cheers,

Bob
 
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Unfortunately you will find something in this post to take issue with rather than take on board the underlying appeal - but I live in hope!

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Dead right I have something to take issue with! Your posts have nothing whatsoever to do with Spanish boat taxes. This is a Spanish Boat Tax Thread

You have no right to tell me what 'tone' I (or any other poster here on YBW) makes. If you don't like my 'tone' either report me to the moderator, or ignore my posts. But don't lecture me on how my 'tone' could be 'softer' and if you are going to contribute to a serious thread kindly add something to the discussion -- don't just come in to throw buns! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Really can't let this go, David. Go back over this thread and nothing, but nothing is any different from when it first started.

That is the message.

You may want a thread on Spanish Taxes, but nobody else seems to want to play your game, hence a gentle polite suggestion to let it be until something happens.
 
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You may want a thread on Spanish Taxes, but nobody else seems to want to play your game, hence a gentle polite suggestion to let it be until something happens.

[/ QUOTE ] Then pray tell us why you are continuing to post in the Spanish Boat Taxes thread, that I started? It would be really useful if you would make some kind of contribution to the subject. But you have nothing to add other than to hurl another bun.
 
Think you are missing the point as usual. You will notice it was a long time before I made a contribution because there is little to add.

I am just suggesting that it is going nowhere and in part this is perhaps due to your aggressive attitude to others, some of whom made useful contributions that you dismissed out of hand. Look back over what you say and I think you will see one track and everytime it is questioned you turn on the questioner. No wonder they withdraw!

By all means start a thread if there is something new, but this is just going over old ground.

I am sure if there is any change it will come up here pretty quickly, just as with the actions against charter boats reported last week on the MOBO forum.

No amount of posturing by you or others is going to make the slightest bit of difference to what the Spanish authorities are going to do or not do. So suggest you just keep an eye on what is going on and react in a way that suits you should there be any change.
 
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By all means start a thread if there is something new, but this is just going over old ground.

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How frightfully decent of you, old chap, to give me permission to start a thread! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Do you think you own this forum space? Should I perhaps get your permission first, in case you deem it to be nothing new? Or shall I find that you -- someone who has no interest whatsoever in Spanish Boat Taxes turning the thread into another bun fight?

The issue is Spanish Boat Taxes. Nothing else. I shall probably employ a firm of London solicitors to follow this up for me and I am hardly likely to share the resulting information with anyone who made no contribution, having shared the advice I paid for entirely by myself, last time.

Yes, I do believe that professional advice is worth paying for. All my life I have used a good Chartered Accountant and I am certain that his fees have been less than my tax savings. Similarly, I live and work within the law and customarily use a lawyer for advice. I have never been in court as a defendant.

Anyone who is dealing in serious money or serious affairs who plays around getting professional legal or accounting advice on the cheap (or free) is a fool. Professionals -- especially these days -- have to maintain very high standards of client care and professional knowledge to retain their licences to practice.

The alternative is to do as you suggest....sit in a harbour and wait to see what happens next. Very strategic thinking -- NOT!!

Indeed it reminds me of those unfortunate folk who had their Spanish homes bulldozed; it turned out that they had not used a lawyer for the conveyancing. A lawyer costs more, of course, but the young girl with one GCSE who works at the local 'estate agency' is much cheaper.... "We don't use lawyers for property purchases in Spain" they will tell you. But you can. You can consult a lawyer on any matter to do with a contract you are entering into. The bigger the contract, the more important it is to have good advice. If, by keeping your yacht in Spain for more than 30 days, you have entered into a 'contract' with the Spanish government to pay 12% of the value of your yacht in taxes, is that not sufficient justification for a professional legal opinion?

Would anyone who owns a valuable yacht, of sound mind, keep their yacht in Spain in the knowledge that there exists professional legal advice that they might be liable to pay 12% of the value, in tax, unless they had accepted that potential liability at the outset? Of course not. Very cheap and tired yachts probably are not an issue, but new-ish, valuable, yachts are an entirely different matter. I cannot fathom the mentality of anyone who would simply 'wait and see'. Like lambs to the slaughter.

But that is not your interest. You have already stated that you have no interest in taking your yacht to Spain! I don't suppose you can even imagine the risk of 'waiting and watching' because it is not your risk. Such risks become more clear when they are personal and affect oneself -- not some hypothetical situation that affects others. Notably, those who are reporting that there is no problem for non-residents are without exception people who do not have a boat in Spain . As far as I know.
 
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I shall probably employ a firm of London solicitors to follow this up for me

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London? Would it not be better to employ a Spanish lawyer?

I suggest you wait. All these charter mobos that have been hit with this tax will lawyer up and some will probably fight it in court and from the court cases you will find out what the law really is.
 
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London? Would it not be better to employ a Spanish lawyer?

[/ QUOTE ] My last lawyer was Spanish. There are firms of International solicitors in London who have specialists in other countries but are utterly fluent in English. I would like to be sure -- without any doubt -- that the question I am asking is understood and from the perspective of a British Citizen. It will undoubtedly be more expensive, but maybe that's a price worth paying? But if others are joining me in a multi-client study then I am happy to consider all suggestions.

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I suggest you wait. All these charter mobos that have been hit with this tax will lawyer up and some will probably fight it in court and from the court cases you will find out what the law really is.

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I think that they are in a rather different situation to me. I have no earnings in Spain and will not hire the yacht or use it as part of any business. From the advice that I have received and from other material that I have read, I am not surprised that any yacht offered for charter has been targeted and I fear that the owners will not get very far and certainly not to court. They'd better not go to my Spanish lawyer, anyway, as he'll tell them that any yacht in Spanish waters for more than 30 days is liable to the tax!

In terms of 'waiting' it isn't convenient for me to sit and wait. We have certain business and living decisions to make and we need somewhere suitable to keep the yacht. Spain is our first choice for various reasons so I shall just have to go ahead and get this sorted out for myself but anyone wishing to take part can email me to the address I gave in the OP and we can split the costs.
 
Your attitude is relevant because you are suggesting a joint approach. Having read many of your posts I will say that whilst I am interested in Spanish taxes, and am presently in Spain on my boat, you are the last person I would wish to participate with in a joint study.
 
You are quite wrong. The reason I would not take my boat to Spain is exactly the issue that causes you concern. There are too many uncetainties about the country and its treatment of non-nationals for me to be comfortable.

However thousands of people are keeping their boats there and they are exactly in the same category as you - that is with newish expensive boats and they do not seem to be concerned.

I have nothing against using professional advice. However, from everything you write it seems that you can only get 3 answers. Firstly the one that you have, secondly the more common view that the legislation will not apply to non-residents, or thirdly the situation is unclear because the Spanish authorities have yet to make their intentions clear.

As to "wait and see" - as I understand it your boat is not in Spain so is not at risk and you do not have this somewhat strange idea of a "contract" with the Spanish government.

If your reason for seeking advice is to help a decision whether to move your boat there, then "wait and see" is the zero risk option. Even if you are able to get a "better" opinion it is unlikely to be a clear "don't worry, quite safe, Spanish Government would never do that". So going there will always carry a risk, and if as you do consider the consequences not in your interests, do the same as me and keep out.

Not sure what you mean by a "bun fight" but I hope you consider what I have written as a useful contribution to the issue of Spanish Taxes! - even if you don't agree with my reasoning.
 
Has anyone tried the SOLVIT organisation. Confusion over EU law is just the sort of thing they are supposed to sort out. They have been involved with maratime issues before and had some success on behalf of EU citizens. Maybe someone familiar with the issues of this Spanish tax could submit a case. Maybe Lemain could submit a case based on the grounds that the 30 day advice he was given by a Spanish lawyer seems to conflict with EU law. That might smoke out the Spanish Government to state the actuality of the law.

The SOLVIT organisation seemed to get the Portuguese authorities to recognise that you don't have to re-register a boat just because you have stayed in the country longer than 6 months. See this quote from their web site :
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Flying the French flag in Portuguese waters
The French owner of a sailing yacht registered in France was asked by the Portuguese authorities in Porto de Sines to register his boat in Portugal because he had stayed in Portuguese ports for longer than six months. The yacht owner wanted to keep the French flag and turned to SOLVIT for help. SOLVIT Portugal contacted the maritime port authority to clarify the situation. It appeared that the six month limitation was not applicable to EU registered boats. This was explained to the local port authorities so that the French sailor could keep his flag. Solved within 12 days



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Unfortunately you will find something in this post to take issue with rather than take on board the underlying appeal - but I live in hope!

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Dead right I have something to take issue with! Your posts have nothing whatsoever to do with Spanish boat taxes. This is a Spanish Boat Tax Thread

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Ah, so you didn't want to take on the underlying appeal. Never mind. I think the expression is 'disappointed but not surprised'.

Upon calm reflection I hope you might consider that my posts did aim to relate to your achieving success in your desire for others to join you in obtaining collective legal advice. I hope you do succeed. I believe a persons approach could have a bearing on the chances of getting others to join the party but I might be wrong of course.

Let me apologise if you still feel that this and my earlier posts have no bearing on your Spanish Boat Tax Thread. I believe it does but it's 'your' thread and I respect your view even if I disagree with it.

All the best,

Cheers,

Bob
 
That is hugely useful, thank you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It sounds as though the re-registration issue (for non-residents) is not not valid...no doubt we can get chapter and verse from Solvit in due course. The IESDMT is not, however, a registration (matriculation) tax, it is an environmental tax. It is certainly worth approaching them. Seems silly for dozens of us to make the same approach to these people so if we can agree some wording for an enquiry, here, relating to the Spanish IESDMT then one of us can write to them.

Any suggestions as to the question to submit to them?
 
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Your attitude is relevant because you are suggesting a joint approach. Having read many of your posts I will say that whilst I am interested in Spanish taxes, and am presently in Spain on my boat, you are the last person I would wish to participate with in a joint study.

[/ QUOTE ] Fine, I am not into popularity competitions. But it seems to me that not to seek legal advice because you don't like my posts is a bit of an own-goal. On the other hand, in the last 18 months I have not found a single yachtsman or yachting organisation prepared to pay for legal advice on this subject so I rather suspect that you would have absolutely no intention of opening your wallet anyway.

Since you probably never would have contributed, you are no loss. Now, surprise me and organise your own study.....I will bow-out but guarantee to make a like-for-like contribution without having anything to do with your study, provided you send me a copy. But it isn't going to happen, is it? Your wallet is shut.
 
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.... but I hope you consider what I have written as a useful contribution to the issue of Spanish Taxes! - even if you don't agree with my reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ] What was your contribution to the Spanish Taxes issue? You said that it might be, it might not be and that the Spanish are unpredictable. Spain is a highly bureaucratic country and has an entirely codified legal system. Implementation of laws and the administration of them is very patchy -- that is certain. However if one knows the law, with legal help, it is undoubtedly possible to challenge improper tax demands. That is, of course, if they are improper! We need to know for certain what the law says.

You are right that there is doubt in OUR minds at this time but there is certainly no doubt in my Spanish lawyer's mind.

Waiting to see is not useful for me.... I need to do something sooner than that because I live on a yacht and keep moving to avoid becoming resident in any country other than the UK. If I stay in France for 183 days I become resident in France (with all the usual tax implications). Now, if Spain does NOT have the 30 day rule (mentioned in the OP) then until I want to settle somewhere I can move from France, Spain to Portugal and back and stay UK resident even if I don't spend 24 hours in the UK in a year (since failure of a 183 day test leaves you falling back on other things such as banks, tax payments, address, centre of your life, citizenship, etc and for me that means the UK). If Spain DOES have a 30 day rule then I have to whizz through Spain in 30 days if I want to avoid any potential liability.

There must be thousands of yachtsmen for whom this is vital stuff....they are working in the UK, spending only a few weeks a year in Spain but the yacht is there. To have to pay tax of 12% for the privilege of keeping their boat in Spain is going to be unacceptable, surely?
 
There is a danger of over simplifying or even overcomplicating the issues. As you know, registration of yachts comes from a different source of law from tax. They may of course become co-incident if the Spanish government wishes them to be. This tax seems to come from means of transport, not specifically boats - the basic issue about registration of cars is the same in principle throughout the EU. However it does not seem that other states link registration up with a specific tax. Nor does it seem that boats are considered means of transport.

From what I have read of the translations of the legislation the Spanish have rolled all three into one and there is no guidance as to how they are going to implement it.

Unless I have missed something crucial, that is why I think there is nothing to be gained at this point in getting more "legal" advice. The only information that is of any value is the authorities stating how they are going to implement it - and you are not going to get any more than in informed guess. Certainly not something that one could rely on.

It may well be that there are thousands of yachtsmen that might have the same concerns as you, but it is not evident from the responses to these threads, where at a guess less than 20 people have made a contribution! - and many of those, like me only have a theoretical interest.
 
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