Southampton - engine help needed.

[PhillM]

Don't go there!

Golden rule if buying a 40 year old boat to use (rather than a project) on a limited budget a replacement engine or a working engine with a proper service record is a must. Even more important if you can't work on a dodgy engine yourself.

Old engines (particularly Bukh) eat money and by today's standards are not good things even when working properly. Just for info a working, but not "reconditioned" Bukh 20 ready to drop in from Marine Enterprises marineenterprisesltd.co.uk is usually around £2-2500, properly stripped and checked around £3500-4000 plus £1-1500 labour and replacement of all the other things that you find knackered like exhaust, fuel lines, electrics etc.

So, minimum £3500 for another 40 year old engine, £5k for one known sound - or £8500 for a new Beta 25

Agreed. From a bloke who ended up spending £2k to nurse an old MD7A for two seasons then bit the bullet and spent £7k getting a new beta 14 installed. Tbh the engine was worth more than the boat when I sold her but I couldn’t bring myself to breaking an old classic wooden boat for parts. She has a good life pottering around the Hamble now. So nice to see.

 

[rotrax]

As John says above.

You'll need a big ring spanner or equivalent for the injectors.

And a socket that fits the crankshaft nut.

I freed a stuck DV20 by levering the flywheel round using the starter ring gear. A small crowbar was enough.

I took the rocker cover off first and levered the inlet valves open and injected diesel into the combustion space. I then left it to work for 48 hours.

To avoid hydraulic lock when I turned it I used the decompression levers to open the exhaust valves.

Once free it started OK.

 

[Wandering Star]

Don't go there!

Golden rule if buying a 40 year old boat to use (rather than a project) on a limited budget a replacement engine or a working engine with a proper service record is a must. Even more important if you can't work on a dodgy engine yourself.

Old engines (particularly Bukh) eat money and by today's standards are not good things even when working properly. Just for info a working, but not "reconditioned" Bukh 20 ready to drop in from Marine Enterprises marineenterprisesltd.co.uk is usually around £2-2500, properly stripped and checked around £3500-4000 plus £1-1500 labour and replacement of all the other things that you find knackered like exhaust, fuel lines, electrics etc.

So, minimum £3500 for another 40 year old engine, £5k for one known sound - or £8500 for a new Beta 25

But surely you wouldn’t accept the expense of a replacement engine before you knew for sure why the old engine was broken? The present engine was comprehensively rebuilt only 10 years ago so the integrity of the component parts should still be in good condition. if I can (for example) take out the injectors, soak the pistons with a freeing agent and then try to spin the engine again, that’s got to be worth a try even if it proves a waste of (say) £500? I really want to know why the engine wont’t turn - once I know this, I can then make a decision on whether to buy the boat or whether the repair/new/used engine replacement takes the overall cost outside of my budget. Which it may well do!

 

[Wandering Star]

I freed a stuck DV20 by levering the flywheel round using the starter ring gear. A small crowbar was enough.

I took the rocker cover off first and levered the inlet valves open and injected diesel into the combustion space. I then left it to work for 48 hours.

To avoid hydraulic lock when I turned it I used the decompression levers to open the exhaust valves.

Once free it started OK.

Now that’s the sort of real world experience I wanted to read about! That sounds promising. If I follow these instructions I‘ll at least prove to myself the engines dead or alive before shelling out for a replacement engine. If I can get the engine running, I’m quite certain it’ll run forever! If I can’t, then I won’t buy the boat.

 

[LittleSister]

[QUOTE="Tranona, post: 8166684, member: 28716"
Old engines (particularly Bukh) eat money and by today's standards are not good things even when working properly.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that great caution is required in approaching a boat with a dubious old engine, but that comes with the territory of boating on a budget.

I'm curious, though, why you say that Bukhs in particular eat money and are 'not good things by today's standards'. A functioning Bukh is a perfectly good way of propelling a budget boat around, and much more fixable or easily replaced second-hand than some older engines.

A modern motor is thousands of pounds - either for the engine or on the price of the boat - for not a big improvement in 'goodness' as far as propelling the boat is concerned. It's primarily the likely reliability and peace of mind that is the 'goodness' a recent modern engine provides.

The problem for the OP is knowing whether what he has here is a functioning Bukh before he commits himself. It is quite likely just lightly siezed and easily got going again, but obviously could instead be an economic write off. He can see that and is asking here for recommendations of who could help him find that out.

If one can afford it, then it is of course best to buy a similar boat that already been fitted with a newish modern engine. I'm sure the OP knows that. If one cannot afford that then the choice is inevitably either no boat at all, a much smaller boat with a modern engine, ensuring as far as possible the existing old engine is usable and can be repaired in future, or paying a price that allows for re-engining.

If one is looking at having an old engine, I'm not aware of any reason for steering clear of Bukhs in particular, and a Bukh would, in my view, be much preferable to some other old engines one might be faced with.

Bukh DV20s are solidly built engines, most parts are readily available (unlike some other brand old motors), if pricey (not so different to some other brands in that respect!), and if push comes to shove drop-in ex-lifeboat engine DV20s & DV24s are available for less than the cost of a new modern motor. (Whether a new modern engine would be nicer is an irrelevance to most budget boaters.)

 

[rotrax]

IIRC they are 85mm bore. Alternative piston rings are easily obtainable if you find, as I did, the Bukh price too rich.

85mm bore is very common. Width and radial depth is easily measured.

I completely dismantled the DV20 on our Kiwi boat Ella. I was fortunate in removing the rings - which had corroded in their grooves due to seawater ingress - from the pistons without breaking them.

Once cleaned and measured they were fine to use again. If they had not been so expensive from the NZ Bukh agent I would have had new ones. I never bothered to find alternatives as I found the removed rings useable. The cost was a great incentive to use the old ones.

Just sold the boat, seven years after doing the above, still running great. The new owner has just motored it across Wellington Harbour to its new berth in Seaview Marina.

 

[Boater Sam]

IIRC they are 85mm bore. Alternative piston rings are easily obtainable if you find, as I did, the Bukh price too rich.

85mm bore is very common. Width and radial depth is easily measured.

I completely dismantled the DV20 on our Kiwi boat Ella. I was fortunate in removing the rings - which had corroded in their grooves due to seawater ingress - from the pistons without breaking them.

Once cleaned and measured they were fine to use again. If they had not been so expensive from the NZ Bukh agent I would have had new ones. I never bothered to find alternatives as I found the removed rings useable. The cost was a great incentive to use the old ones.

Just sold the boat, seven years after doing the above, still running great. The new owner has just motored it across Wellington Harbour to its new berth in Seaview Marina.

Piston rings are easy and at reasonable prices too from other engines but the price of main and big end bearings is fearsome. There seems to be no alternatives to the Bukh parts.
Don't risk the crankshaft nut by using a big bar on it. Besides you really need to rock the crank backwards and forwards.
Better to remove the starter motor and use a tyre lever on the ring gear against a piece of wood in the bell housing casting.

 

[Poignard]

e

I don’t suspect there’s anything unique about this little Diesel engine. Most likely a light coating of rust in the bores and the piston rings are stuck. Diesel in the bores and patience…. Then a gentle heave on a long extension on a socket in the crankshaft nut. The starter motor might be a bit too violent! Turn it over slowly once you’ve got it un-siezed and ideally check the compression on each cylinder after it’s started and run for a while.

There is no crankshaft nut.

 

[Boater Sam]

e
There is no crankshaft nut.

No, but there are 6 holding the pulley and flywheel which are not up to being used to turn a seized engine over on. That was why I said not to try a big bar on the nut/s

 

[James_Calvert]

I'm now trying to remember how I freed my lightly seized Bukh 20...

Think I may simply have stood on the starting handle.

Or did I lever the flywheel around a tiny bit first?

Anyway, it was a lot easier than I'd feared.

 

[Poignard]

No, but there are 6 holding the pulley and flywheel which are not up to being used to turn a seized engine over on. That was why I said not to try a big bar on the nut/s

Unbrako bolts, to be pedantic.

But yes, the risk of breaking one of those off short is unacceptable.

 

[Tranona]

But surely you wouldn’t accept the expense of a replacement engine before you knew for sure why the old engine was broken? The present engine was comprehensively rebuilt only 10 years ago so the integrity of the component parts should still be in good condition. if I can (for example) take out the injectors, soak the pistons with a freeing agent and then try to spin the engine again, that’s got to be worth a try even if it proves a waste of (say) £500? I really want to know why the engine wont’t turn - once I know this, I can then make a decision on whether to buy the boat or whether the repair/new/used engine replacement takes the overall cost outside of my budget. Which it may well do!

No - I would not touch the boat unless it was very cheap and could do the work myself. OK to mess about with it before you commit if the seller lets you, but don't buy it if you want a boat to use and it is at the top of your budget to buy.

There is a complete Bukh 20 in the club auction today sitting on a pallet alongside all the redundant CQR anchors (one of which is mine - with no reserve,)

 

[Boater Sam]

Unbrako bolts, to be pedantic.

Certainly.

 

[Wandering Star]

No - I would not touch the boat unless it was very cheap and could do the work myself. OK to mess about with it before you commit if the seller lets you, but don't buy it if you want a boat to use and it is at the top of your budget to buy.

There is a complete Bukh 20 in the club auction today sitting on a pallet alongside all the redundant CQR anchors (one of which is mine - with no reserve,)

Have I missed the auction? Which club is holding it? I’d be quite interested in attending if it’s not too late and if non-members are allowed in?

 

[Tranona]

Have I missed the auction? Which club is holding it? I’d be quite interested in attending if it’s not too late and if non-members are allowed in?

Sorry did not get back earlier - Mothers Day duty with one daughter in Oxford all day, other in Reading tomorrow!

Auction was today at 1.30 in Poole Yacht Club. Did not go for obvious reasons - and my aim is to get rid of junk rather than acquire more!

 

[Tranona]

[QUOTE="Tranona, post: 8166684, member: 28716"
Old engines (particularly Bukh) eat money and by today's standards are not good things even when working properly.

I agree with you that great caution is required in approaching a boat with a dubious old engine, but that comes with the territory of boating on a budget.

I'm curious, though, why you say that Bukhs in particular eat money and are 'not good things by today's standards'. A functioning Bukh is a perfectly good way of propelling a budget boat around, and much more fixable or easily replaced second-hand than some older engines.

A modern motor is thousands of pounds - either for the engine or on the price of the boat - for not a big improvement in 'goodness' as far as propelling the boat is concerned. It's primarily the likely reliability and peace of mind that is the 'goodness' a recent modern engine provides.

The problem for the OP is knowing whether what he has here is a functioning Bukh before he commits himself. It is quite likely just lightly siezed and easily got going again, but obviously could instead be an economic write off. He can see that and is asking here for recommendations of who could help him find that out.

If one can afford it, then it is of course best to buy a similar boat that already been fitted with a newish modern engine. I'm sure the OP knows that. If one cannot afford that then the choice is inevitably either no boat at all, a much smaller boat with a modern engine, ensuring as far as possible the existing old engine is usable and can be repaired in future, or paying a price that allows for re-engining.

If one is looking at having an old engine, I'm not aware of any reason for steering clear of Bukhs in particular, and a Bukh would, in my view, be much preferable to some other old engines one might be faced with.

Bukh DV20s are solidly built engines, most parts are readily available (unlike some other brand old motors), if pricey (not so different to some other brands in that respect!), and if push comes to shove drop-in ex-lifeboat engine DV20s & DV24s are available for less than the cost of a new modern motor. (Whether a new modern engine would be nicer is an irrelevance to most budget boaters.)
[/QUOTE]
Seems you agree with my post#20. Nothing wrong with a working Bukh, but plenty wrong with one that does not work and boat is at top of budget - even more so if you have to pay somebody to find out that it is past it.

Look at the figures I gave (which are real). Even a direct drop in of another one that has been run on a bench for an hour, cleaned and painted is £3500 - less than a new replacement but is still a 30 or 40 year old engine. The £5k for a "reconditioned" one fitted is real - a club member was having just that in his Fulmar at the same time as my Beta was being fitted and that is what is bill was compared with my £8500 for a vastly superior high spec Beta 30. He had already gone through the strip down and check route with the engine in place 3 years previously and had nothing but trouble, hence the replacement. Shame really because it is potentially a nice boat - owned for years but eking out the last few years of its life with minimal expenditure.

There is no perfect answer to the question of what to do - it depends on the boat and the individuals expectations, capability and budget. But engines in old boats are biggest and most expensive "problems" and as I said at the beginning, if you want to buy an old boat like this to use then it must have a good engine in your budget.

 

[upcountry2]

Try Alan Ganter, he is across the water at Marchwood Yacht Club, he will tell you if it’s viable or not.
not got his No to hand ,google will find him….

 

[davidmh]

Try Cutler Marine at Emsworth, they have been Bukh service dealers for many years, it could be worth getting a professional opinion. I maybe a very simple problem which can be fixed without huge costs.
David MH

 

[rotrax]

Piston rings are easy and at reasonable prices too from other engines but the price of main and big end bearings is fearsome. There seems to be no alternatives to the Bukh parts.
Don't risk the crankshaft nut by using a big bar on it. Besides you really need to rock the crank backwards and forwards.
Better to remove the starter motor and use a tyre lever on the ring gear against a piece of wood in the bell housing casting.

The flywheel and ring gear on a Bukh is in the open at the front of the engine, no need to remove the starter motor.