'Sound Signals'

Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Fireball
I am more than happy to have a rational discussion.

My question states that the sailing boats are IMPEDING the progress of the MoBo in the narrow channel - in that case do you accept that the rule is clear - the MoBo or any other boat impeded because of is draft etc so that it is confined to the narrow channel is the stand on vessel?

An answer to that question gives the base to discuss the other questions.

As you have raised a different question, I will give my answer to but hope that this will not let Observer and others off the hook in refusing to answer my simple question.


"Would you agree that a 50-60' mobo will have a bow thruster?"
Most will but not all.

"Then he can turn on the spot
So he can come back from whence he came
Therefore he is not impeeded

No - you are making assumptions there.
IF there was room to turn and nobody behind you proceeding down the channel, you could turn away from your current course on the spot and go in the exact opposite direction!!! BUT for a sail boat crossing that channel to force you to turn away fron your course means that you are IMPEDED in your progress - you are still the stand on vessel as per the rules -agreed?

You seem to be claiming what are to me absurdities.

1. That to stop a vessel proceeding on it course and force it to turn 180 degrees and go the opposite way is not impeding that vessel!!!!!!!

2. That somehow the crossing sailboat just because its a sail boat can do this at anytime to a MoBo in any circumstances?????

I have answered your question honestly - can you please answer mine as honestly? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

To everyone

I am finding this thread amazing in as much as there is so much reluctance to answer a simple question that is precisely covered by ColRegs.

In me having so much trouble getting a straight answer surprises me because I think it exposes a very foggy attitude that causes problems out on the water.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Proof sail should not stand on in narrow channel here
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Poor example, since the vessel (sailboat) approching from the Port side of the MoBo, is in fact a 'power driven vessel', not under sail propulsion.

IT shold have given way & turned to stbd or stopped to prevent this collision.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

the info pack I was handed clearly stated Power gives way to sail except when sail is overtaking
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ANY overtaking vessel has the duty to stand clear when overtaking.

Whether it is propelled by sail or power doesn't matter.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Fireball
I am more than happy to have a rational discussion.

My question states that the sailing boats are IMPEDING the progress of the MoBo in the narrow channel - in that case do you accept that the rule is clear - the MoBo or any other boat impeded because of is draft etc so that it is confined to the narrow channel is the stand on vessel?


[/ QUOTE ]
Your question does not imply the speed at which the Mobo has rights to travel. I believe the rule was written with ships in mind - the likes of which can be seen in the solent and other areas daily. It can apply to smaller vessels as well, but it is not so clear cut.
It has already been said that generally a Mobo will draw the same, if not less than the sailing boats - that is not to say the mobo should exit the channel, just that he could.
Neither have you defined a narrow channel - I opened up discussions a year or so ago which came to no conclusion - as one skipper cannot second guess the ability/constraints of the other skipper/vessel you cannot assume that they are or are not confined by draft - so whilst the mobo skipper may not wish the sailing vessel to be in the channel, they may also be confined to the channel by obstructions known to them but not charted.

[ QUOTE ]

An answer to that question gives the base to discuss the other questions.

As you have raised a different question, I will give my answer to but hope that this will not let Observer and others off the hook in refusing to answer my simple question.


"Would you agree that a 50-60' mobo will have a bow thruster?"
Most will but not all.

"Then he can turn on the spot
So he can come back from whence he came
Therefore he is not impeeded

No - you are making assumptions there.
IF there was room to turn and nobody behind you proceeding down the channel, you could turn away from your current course on the spot and go in the exact opposite direction!!! BUT for a sail boat crossing that channel to force you to turn away fron your course means that you are IMPEDED in your progress - you are still the stand on vessel as per the rules -agreed?


[/ QUOTE ]
That rather depends what is your progress - you assume the sailing skipper to know what your intentions are ... I've seen many a boat go down a channel only to do a 180 for no apparent reason and go back the otherway.

[ QUOTE ]

You seem to be claiming what are to me absurdities.

1. That to stop a vessel proceeding on it course and force it to turn 180 degrees and go the opposite way is not impeding that vessel!!!!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm stating that progress and imeding is not always clear cut.
[ QUOTE ]

2. That somehow the crossing sailboat just because its a sail boat can do this at anytime to a MoBo in any circumstances?????


[/ QUOTE ]
Any vessel is free to do as it pleases - but that doesn't make it the most sensible course of action ....
[ QUOTE ]

I have answered your question honestly - can you please answer mine as honestly? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've answered all your questions - but before you repeat your last line can you make it clear as to which of your questions you believe I haven't answered honestly? (you didn't say clearly! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

To everyone

I am finding this thread amazing in as much as there is so much reluctance to answer a simple question that is precisely covered by ColRegs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most by now, have forgotten the question.

However, the following might help, but as you might find there are no absolutely clearcut answers, hence the complicated legal system associated with mercantile matters.

One answer, might be Rule 9(b) - which I think is the one you are asking for.
However, Rule 17(ii)& Rule 18(iv) may be the dinghy sailors interpretation!

But another might refer you to Rule 3 (f) & (g).
Which of (f) or (g) is your MoBo?

Or is it contravening Rule 5?
Or even Rule 6(iii)(v) & (vi).

Rule 8(a) together with (c)(d)&(e).

With regard to your draught, Rule 18(d)(ii) might apply.

Were you exhibiting dayshapes in accordance with Rule 27 & Rule 28?
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
It has already been said that generally a Mobo will draw the same, if not less than the sailing boats - that is not to say the mobo should exit the channel, just that he could.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree some twit did claim that but I clearly explained why it was not correct.

Sailing dinghy 40cm-90cm

Power boat 1.2 m but due to the suction effect in a narrow channel the mobo will require 1.7m to remain afloat while under power ( see above for full detailed explanation).

The huge difference which can be seen on a regular basis is that the sailing dinghy/race will be operating outside the narrow channel and only cross it occasionally; thus it can be clearly seen that the dinghies can operate in the shallows where the mobo would risk grounding.

In these circumstances where the mobo has nowhere to go to give way then the sail craft should not cross the channel even if racing.

I cant believe you are teaching kids to stand on .


I regularly go for a gallop on the beach, in oder to get there I have to cross a busy A road full of tourists/townies, Horses still have the right of way but I dont just trot across with out looking !

I wait for a gap, hold arm up and proceed across 4 lanes...........always the cars with dinghies on roof bars or jet skies behind 4x4s that are impatient /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Sailing dinghy 40cm-90cm

Power boat 1.2 m but due to the suction effect in a narrow channel the mobo will require 1.7m to remain afloat while under power ( see above for full detailed explanation).

[/ QUOTE ]

I've walked past many a powerboat on the hard - not many are drawing over a meter - most are comparable to the dinghy...
Many dinghies will also require a good depth beneath them - I've seen the holes created when they hit the bottom too hard - and they are not cheap either, not only do they hit the bottom, but that causes capsise which can result in helm/crew landing on the sail causing a grands worth of damage and many weeks of layup whilst the damage is repaired.

So, whilst we're on about narrow channels and sailboats vs mobos - my larger sail boat draws 1.8m - therefore can I assume I'm more constrained than most mobos - therefore if I can tack out of the channel then so can they - so I can reclaim my stand-on status. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway - I'm amazed at you lot - you appear to be looking around 200m infront of you - as a racing dinghy helm I'm looking at 0.5-1nm ahead ... perhaps you should do the same?!
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

In my original example

The dinghy was already in the shallows, I was not asking him to go aground for me.

He was about to charge in front of me, I had not seen him as he was camouflaged by boats on trots.........drying !

I blasted my horn and he passed a stern of me, I thanked him.

There would have been a collision, my boat would have continued in the channel, I sincerely hope other dinghy sailors can see the danger .
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely hope other dinghy sailors can see the danger .

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes - don't get in the way of Daka with his horn when he is operating in a narrow channel! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Thanks, now we have that sorted .......... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You should see me in action with Rowers /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]


But did he wave?

[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

no he wasnt a happy little bunny at all .

He was well out of site of the fleet, you could hear the finishing horn popping away in the distance
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

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In the case of say a 50 to 60 foot MoBo in a narrow buoyed channel that he cannot go safely outside and a dinghy race organised across the channel where they are impeding the progress of the MoBo - in your opinion is the MoBo the stand on vessel?
****************************************************

Please note this IS NOT the original question....Nothing about narrow channels!!!!!!!
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

You can huff and puff as much as you like - I'm not a witness in court compelled to answer questions the way you choose to express them.

Look at the extract from (what I assume are) Chichester Harbour byelaws posted by rickp. I have emphasised the relevant section for you and others who are hard of thinking:

[ QUOTE ]
Narrow Channels (Rule 9)
All boats should keep to the right, and as close to the edge of the channel as is practical. Anchoring in a narrow channel breaks rule 9 as well as risking a serious accident.
The term narrow channel is relative and depends upon a vessels' means of propulsion, size, manoeuvrability and the prevailing conditions. For instance all vessels should treat mooring fairways as narrow channels whereas the main channels may only be considered narrow channels by large vessels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking that as reasonably authoritative, it's clear that the assessment of what does or does not constitute a "narrow channel" is open to subjective interpretation, and not just by reference to the size of the vessel.

However, accepting the second sentence as an authoritative conclusion that the mooring fairways in Chichester Harbour are to be treated as narrow channels, the next question that has to be answered is:

- What does "impede the passage of a vessel" mean? That again is open to at least a degree of subjective interpretation (I don't particularly want to have to explain this in single syllable words as well but I will if needed).

And after that, the next question that has to be answered is:

- What does "can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway" mean? That is open to a wide range of interpretations. The passage of a vessel in a narrow channel is only 'not-to-be-impeded' if it can ONLY safely navigate within that channel. I don't know Chichester Harbour that well but I suspect that at (say) HW +/- 3 hours, your illustrative 50-60' mobo could navigate quite happily outside the mooring fairways. If that is so, you don't have the priority granted by rule 9, for that reason alone.

I could go on but your patronising tone has become tedious and I'm afraid I don't suffer fools gladly.

I'll simply end by saying that these types of rules will alway allow at least a degree of flexibility in interpretation, depending on circumstances. They are drafted with that intention. So, unless one makes a series of subjective assumptions, there is very little that is "very clear".
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

You clot, imped does not mean to block, it simply means to hinder.
I was hindered as I had to put my G&T down to press the horn /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

As to the rest of your tripe /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

You are mistaking mobos for those noisy things with skirts, fans and flashing orange lights !
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

it means to interfere with or slow the progress of ... as another skipper cannot predict your movement they are always at risk of impeding you.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Yes, they have already been banned from sailing in most marinas and some harbours, as soon as the current Chichester Harbour Master/clown goes we might see some common sense there too.

The water skiers have specific areas and specific times, I dont see why dinghy racing cant equally be managed outside peak times/areas too.
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see why dinghy racing cant equally be managed outside peak times/areas too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funnily enough we can predict the peak times through the chichester channel and out the harbour - just shortly after freeflow starts at Chichester marina !!

Pretty much all dinghy racing is advertised on the various club noticeboards/websites so you should look at those and avoid the racing times really - a dinghy race usually lasts between 1 and 2 hours - so that leaves another 22 hours for you to get in and out of your berth .... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
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