'Sound Signals'

Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
3. “ Vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel ”: this one should be obvious.
As you are less than 20 metres, you cannot claim narrow channel rights under IRPCS. Not a lot of people know that…..

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're reading that wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Rule 9(b): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow passage or fairway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Smaller boats (less than 20m) and all sailing boats should not impede the vessel that is in the channel. It does not specify the size of the vessel in the channel - so I don't see how you claim that you have to be longer than 20m to claim narrow channel rights?

Rick
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
It makes no difference to them mostly, as there not going anywhere in particular.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except those that are racing that are going somewhere on a purpose - ok, they do not have RIGHT OF WAY ... however generally they are STAND ON VESSEL ... the problem is that there is some confusion with many powerboat drivers as exactly where the dinghies are going and how to avoid the close quarters to start with.

I do drive a powerboat - I helm the patrolboat during racing (take my turn) and it is not that difficult to keep out of the way - ok, I've got a nimble rib - but I'm also looking to stay fairly close to the fleet....
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Point is, there would be no danger of collisions if mobos kept a decent eye out and took time to understand just what the dinghy was doing rather than just demanding "narrow channel" rights ...


here we go ... round and round in circles until the racing fleet has disappeared! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Major, as a yottie I must say I think you are completely right about both those situations.

I have found the “sail gives way to power” ticket being pulled, usually (but not exclusively) by less experienced sailors who do not appreciate the limitations of other vessels.
In the first, the sailing dinghy did not obey the overtaking rule (which applies regardless of motive power) in that she did not keep clear of the overtaken vessel until finally past and clear. If she was not already aware of the other vessel, then she contravened Rule 2b: in that passing between two moored vessels where her vision was restricted, she was not prepared to make a departure from the rules (i.e. to give way) in the event of finding herself in a potentially dangerous situation with a vessel less manoeuvrable than herself.

In the second, well, we’ve all seen them. It’s a direct contravention of Rule 17(b), which basically says that no matter how much right of way you think you have, you must alter course if you are so close that the action of the give way vessel cannot avert a collision.

A couple of years ago, I had a similar contretemps with a sailboarder. I was just hooking onto my mooring when he came thundering up from the quarter, down the port side so close he nearly snagged my rigging. I thought he had passed clear, but then he bore away to go round my mooring buoy (obviously had been using it as a “turning mark” in my absence), just as my bowsprit went over the top of it. The sailboard stayed on the port side, he carried on to starboard. As he drifted past the cockpit, we picked him out of the water and his first words were “but, but, but power gives way to sail”. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

He tried to claim on my insurers, but let himself down when he said that the first time he knew I was there was when my bowsprit went through his sail (wot no lookout?). Needless to say, I didn’t lose my no-claims bonus (or any sleep, for that matter).

Bottom line is, the IRPCS are relevant to dealing with these situations, it's just that there are many sailors (of all persuasions, including motorboats) who need a better knowledge of them.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

OK, picture the scene: I’m running up a buoyed channel, and claiming “narrow channel” rights in my 12m mobo. Along comes an 18m mobo – can I claim narrow channel rights on him, and expect him to avoid impeding my passage because he is below 20m? Run that past me again? In the same vein, a 25m yacht could not claim “narrow channel” rights when under sail, but could do so when under power.

You either have narrow channel rights or you don’t, and IRPCS couldn’t be more clear: power driven vessels under 20m do not. What you can do, however, regardless of your size, is to state that you are constrained by draught, and show the appropriate shape / lights – in this case, however, as the vessel has the same draught as a sailing dinghy, it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 blasts on the horn has always meant:

"Get out of my way 'cos I ain't getting out of yours"!

[/ QUOTE ]

'Fraid not! 4 blasts is reserved for a Pilot vessel operating in restricted visibility - fog. Normally proceeded with one long blast. Normal sound signal for a power driven vessel.

[/ QUOTE ]
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Perhaps its because I used to work for Trinity House Pilot Service (Sunk Pilots and also Folkestone Pilots) or they changed some of the signals in the past 40 years? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Rule 9(b): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow passage or fairway.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with previous poster. This does not say that the vessel not to be impeded must be over 20m, only that it must be able to safely navigate only within a narrow passage or fairway. Your example is irrelevant - each vessel must look out for the other.

Further, it does not say that draft is the only reason for the limited ability to navigate. Try turning out of a channel which is bordered by moored boats with small gaps (big enough for a dinghy) between, often with mooring lines across them. Note also the word "safely".
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

the dinghy crew were explaining to the hapless MOBO skipper that power gives way to sail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try claiming that in front of a large steel merchant vessl doing 25knts! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Try claiming that in front of a large steel merchant vessl doing 25knts!
*************************************************

Why should they......it was just a Mobo!!!!!!!
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
You've given a list of some disgraceful reasons for disregarding IRPCS.

I do hope you're joking.

[/ QUOTE ]


I only wanted to know the sound signals, I gave a dozen reasons thinking no one would object in this case to me wanting to hold course and speed.
I will attempt to justify each action :-

Dinghies can operate in 6 inchs of water, only on a beat do they prefer(not need) to use the centre board fully down.

When I deemed the channel narrow, in this case I was between two posts that were about 10-15 m apart marking drying areas. I could not guarantee that I could spin around without getting wedged between markers or sand banks.

I am an experienced dinghy sailor (and latter cruisers) with trophies in my cabinet at home; this clown was on a broad reach, there was no reason why he could not very easily alter course to avoid me. It also meant that his centre board was not down all the way, his draft was negligible !


Agreed a sailing boat is the stand on craft in open waters, the obligation of a stand on craft is to stand on holding course and speed.
Clearly a sailing boat can not tack into another boat or tack into a channel without first checking it is safe to do so without impeding other boats.
All those idiots suggesting a MOBO should guess the next actions of a dinghy are trolling.....the mobo has a duty to assume the dinghy or sailing craft will maintain course and speed or tack away out of danger.

I agree with Rick and thefatlady, sorry Dombuckley it is black and white.

I do not agree that the regulations are intended to make a mobo wait until the end of a dinghy race before they use a wide channel /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
the regulations apply to individual boats.


As fluke would have it my one blast was accurate and the correct sound signal ...........local bylaw, I just checked /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

As a curious person asking a relatively sensible question:-

On the Thames and many other rivers the rules state that a vessel going upstream must essentially keep out of the way of one going downstream, especially in narrow/shallow areas.

What is a mobo is going down and a sailing vessel up in circumstances whereby the SV would otherwise have right of way? Not uncommon with dinghy races?. I just keep out of the way at the edges but that can be very hard when I need 4' of water and they don't. Never been a problem yet but one day.

No, I've never thought to look it up or even pose the question beforehand.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You've given a list of some disgraceful reasons for disregarding IRPCS.

I do hope you're joking.

[/ QUOTE ]


Dinghies can operate in 6 inchs of water, only on a beat do they prefer(not need) to use the centre board fully down.



[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute cack.

Firstly a dinghy has a rudder. Last time I checked the rudder on anything bigger than an oppie was at least 2 foot in draught, and most rudders are not lifting but either on or off.

Modern high performance dinghys do not lift the board for the simple reason that they never have the time to, so upwind or down they'll be drawining 3 foot minimum.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Oh Really !

The 'deep drafted' dinghy in question had a single white sail with a red sun and a line like a laser coming from it............

/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif





Nice try /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

So you expect a laser sailor to turn round and face backwards and battle with the lifting mechanism whilst still trying to keep the thing upright so he can sail in 6 inches of dew to avoid you?

Get real.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

The thread is getting a bit long now and it is understandable that you have not read the whole thread, if I may point out a few bits you have either missed or not understood, an experienced sailor would have spotted that he was already in an area that dried outside the channel.

He was on a broad reach and most likely didnt have his full rudder down.

He was already in water that the chart suggested should be dry ( as far as my vessel was concerned).

He had no right to force me out of the channel, all he had to do was alter course slightly to pass either ahead of me or astern of me.

There was no need to trim much that he shouldnt have been doing anyway due to the wind veer.

He realised his error once the appropriate sound signal was given and he moved , I thanked him for his trouble /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It was luck that I chose the right sound signal, as it was only a local signal I am not sure if he understood the significance or not ?

Its a shame more inexperienced sailors dont try to understand the col regs better and ask more questions as you are doing /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Join a sailing club or go on a course, its geat fun, safe and relaxing so long as you understand your responsibilities /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Exactly

What would be great - if thes guys could actually have a go at driving a twin screw mobo - it would give them an insight into what problems we actually have.

After all a Laser is a doddle to sail - and much more manouverable than a big mobo - I KNOW I've owned both.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]

He was on a broad reach and most likely didnt have his full rudder down.

[/ QUOTE ]
DAKA - it is obviously a long long time since you've been sailing dinghies - you do NOT lift the rudder, doing so causes far to much pressure on the rudder and slows the boat down, you may lift the centreboard, but not the rudder ...
If I lift my rudder a fraction of an inch it becomes very hard to helm ... you'll have to come and have a go one day! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's not so long since I've sailed a dinghy ( last year during a rescue) or cruiser (this season).

While in shallow water I raise the rudder and centre board/dagger board.

I dont recall the rudder on a laser in detail but I would have expected

To raise you oink a bit of string and stuff in a jamming cleat.

to lower you just un cleat.........

where does the leaning over the stern come into it /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

My rudder used to be held down with a bit of shock cord, when in shallows the rudder just springs up and causes a little drag......

All irrelevant to the situation anyway as the laser was already in the shallows and rigged for shallow running.



By the way

You are correct the rudder is harder to steer but in a race situation you will find the water 1 ft deeper offers MUCH more resistance, a raised rudder held steady will win the race.
Have trophies to prove it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
The thread is getting a bit long now and it is understandable that you have not read the whole thread, if I may point out a few bits you have either missed or not understood, an experienced sailor would have spotted that he was already in an area that dried outside the channel.

He was on a broad reach and most likely didnt have his full rudder down.

He was already in water that the chart suggested should be dry ( as far as my vessel was concerned).

He had no right to force me out of the channel, all he had to do was alter course slightly to pass either ahead of me or astern of me.

There was no need to trim much that he shouldnt have been doing anyway due to the wind veer.

He realised his error once the appropriate sound signal was given and he moved , I thanked him for his trouble /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It was luck that I chose the right sound signal, as it was only a local signal I am not sure if he understood the significance or not ?

Its a shame more inexperienced sailors dont try to understand the col regs better and ask more questions as you are doing /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Join a sailing club or go on a course, its geat fun, safe and relaxing so long as you understand your responsibilities /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read the whole thread. You had moved from discussing a specific incident to discussing generalisms, which I have replied to in kind, it would of course be wrong of me to reply in refernce to a specific incident which I was not there to witness.

As to your very patronising advice telling me to go on a course - I teach the courses!
Your continued assertion across many threads that I can recall that there are many reasons for not giving way to sailing craft whenever you are in a river or other restricted channel are dangerous as other less experienced MOBOers might actually believe them.

I very frequently enter the Hamble whilst the local dinghy and small cruiser races are in full swing and even in an underpowered racing yacht with a 2.3m draught I seem to manage to avoid all of them and avoid sticking the thing on the bricks at the same time! Even the nervous sailors at the back of the fleet are no problem as I keep my eyes out of the boat.
If I believed half the drivel you spout I'd expect to colide with at least 3 of them every week.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top