'Sound Signals'

Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Ouch - I stand corrected. Pilot vessel in Restricted Vis.

4 short blasts = morse for H = the white red flag the pilot boat wears.

Interesting how morse gets in, yet I believe it's been officially dissed...
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

In the case of say a 50 to 60 foot MoBo in a narrow buoyed channel that he cannot go safely outside and a dinghy race organised across the channel where they are impeding the progress of the MoBo - in your opinion is the MoBo the stand on vessel?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Check out the Wightlink Ferry operating out of Lymington.

On Wednesday & Sunday, apart from the usual keel boats, there is an infestation of Optimists + Cadets being sailed by kids, in a very narrow channel.

The Ferry 'gives way' & this is "probably more than 50m" length!
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Alant
I asked you a direct question that you have refused to clearly answer!!
Instead I am left to infer from your answer an attitude that to me is the root cause of the problem.

To me that shows you are biased as the rules are very clear on this and you apparently just choosing to ignore Colregs.

To me there are MoBos and raggies that both breach Colregs - I am not trying to take sides.

You live in the world of your own where you can choose what Colregs you wish to follow. A world where a vessel that cannot move out of the channel and can have all sorts of problems stopping and losing steerage has to accept those rude enough to ignore colregs and impede the MoBos progress. Actually impede any boats that was limited to the channels progress including a large keeled raggie.

That attitude is the root cause of the problem here.

I would still like a direct answer to my question.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Alant
I asked you a direct question that you have refused to clearly answer!!
Instead I am left to infer from your answer an attitude that to me is the root cause of the problem.

To me that shows you are biased as the rules are very clear on this and you apparently just choosing to ignore Colregs.

To me there are MoBos and raggies that both breach Colregs - I am not trying to take sides.

You live in the world of your own where you can choose what Colregs you wish to follow. A world where a vessel that cannot move out of the channel and can have all sorts of problems stopping and losing steerage has to accept those rude enough to ignore colregs and impede the MoBos progress. Actually impede any boats that was limited to the channels progress including a large keeled raggie.

That attitude is the root cause of the problem here.

I would still like a direct answer to my question.

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Pull your bloody horns in & ask again nicely! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
What on earth wound you up?? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

"a dinghy race organised across the channel where they are impeding the progress of the MoBo - in your opinion is the MoBo the stand on vessel?"

My answer was simply an example of where a commercial (large) MoBo, considers itself (with a professional crew/master) a 'give way' vessel, even when in a narrow channel!

Perhaps the essence of the problem, is not 'narrow channel', but what does a vessel 'restricted in its ability to manouvre' do, when on a collision course with one or more sailing dinghies (racing or otherwise).

"You live in the world of your own where you can choose what Colregs you wish to follow. A world where a vessel that cannot move out of the channel and can have all sorts of problems stopping and losing steerage has to accept those rude enough to ignore colregs and impede the MoBos progress."

I have no problem following the IRPCS rules & maybe you should refer to Rule 2 (a) for clarification in this matter!
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

You do seem to be getting a bit stressed about this question Paul.

The answer is there is no correct (or incorrect) answer. It may be ideal for race organisers to avoid setting race courses that cross marked channels (perhaps they do, I don't know). However, if it's not easily achievable (and I can see reasons it may not be) then power vessels just have to make the best of it. That may mean giving way occasionally, or frequently, or stopping, or even reversing course for a while. That may be a little or even more than a little inconvenient, but so what - each dinghy sailor is as entitled to the use of any given stretch of water as any power boat user.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Observer
If I was the one in the channel in a boat restricted the channel, I would have no problem in doing all I could not to disturb the race and although I would be the stand on vessel no problem in stopping and sitting back until they are finished. This is what I try to do and the result is normally a thank you from the organisers.

Some times the organisers have no other way thatn to use the channel eg the River Avon up to Bristol.

However in some circumstances it is simply not possible to do that and the give way vessel should understand that. The rules are clear on it.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

The Lymington Ferry is a very poor example to quote in this thread and just clouds the issue.

For anyone reading this from outside the lymington area there are two issues

1) the channel is substantially wider than my quoted 10-15 m narrow channel.

2) the lymington ferry is not a traditional twin screw boat

it does not have a bow or stern, it can be driven either way.

there is a drive at either end of the boat

the drive system is more like a paddle wheel on its side with variable props.

in effect the lyminton ferry can hold water in any conditions, cross wind, current no problem and move sidewards.

My boat is only 11 - 12 m long and has twin screws no bow thruster, in a narrow channel with either or both cross wind or current I can not hold stationary position.

It is for this reason why Sailing craft should not stand on.

this is clearly written in numerous Harbour guides including Chichester where a narrow channel includes all channels with Mooring trots, many of these channels are well over 30 m wide.

There is little wander with attitudes like this that sailing boats keep disappearing in action.


Proof sail should not stand on in narrow channel here
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

I thought you said you were only 11 or 12 m long - not high!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Daka
As you know the rules are very clear and my simple question was for me a test of attitude and the attitude was disappointing to say the least.

Rule 2 was pointed out to me - I know have the responsibility of avoiding a collision even if I am the stand on vessel and the other vessel is in breach of the rules. That does not exampt the other vessel and allow it to breach the rules.

In the BVI the info pack I was handed clearly stated Power gives way to sail except when sail is overtaking - maybe some people believe that is the only exemption - I have even been clearly told by a race organiser, commodore of the sailing club that power has to give way to sail even when sail is under power!!!! This is what these guys were teaching the kids.

There is lack of knowledge on both sides here and I have certainly seen very rude MoBos on the South Coast almost drowning sail boats as they pass.

I am about to be come a raggie and I think a cone will be the first thing I will buy for the boat! .... promise /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
However in some circumstances it is simply not possible to do that and the give way vessel should understand that. The rules are clear on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rules are not "clear on it" at all. Like much of colregs, they're open to subjective interpretation. It seems to me that the narrow channel rule does not exist to allow an average mobo to claim priority over a sailing dinghy in a typical approach channel but (purely for illustration) to make clear that a container ship exiting Southampton Water and having to negotiate the turn round the Bramble Bank simply cannot stop for anyone.

I find it quite hard to envisage circumstances where I would be severely discomforted by a gaggle of sailing dinghies. If I ever was, I think I would have to accept responsibility for not looking far enough ahead.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Sorry Observer you are wrong - the rules are clear.

My question was based on a boat that was restricted to the channel and not able to go outside the channel - there is a rule that applies directly to that question.

I am also talking about such a boat restricted to that channel with the entire channel in front of it blocked by crossing sailing boats.

I cannot see how you cannot see that there is a clear rule the specifically relates to that situation.

We are not discussing what is constrained - we are stating that it is constrained to such a narrow channel.

I am frankly amazed at your answer.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Observer you are wrong - the rules are clear.

My question was based on a boat that was restricted to the channel and not able to go outside the channel - there is a rule that applies directly to that question.

I am also talking about such a boat restricted to that channel with the entire channel in front of it blocked by crossing sailing boats.

I cannot see how you cannot see that there is a clear rule the specifically relates to that situation.

We are not discussing what is constrained - we are stating that it is constrained to such a narrow channel.

I am frankly amazed at your answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm going to enjoy this.

Okay - if the rules are as precise and unambiguous as you claim, please explain, with reference to colregs, the following:

- what is "a narrow channel"

- how (precisely) does rule 9(b) interact with (say) rule 18?

-
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Observer - nope, I am enjoying this because you are simply not reading the question which I will repeat:
------------
In the case of say a 50 to 60 foot MoBo in a narrow buoyed channel that he cannot go safely outside and a dinghy race organised across the channel where they are impeding the progress of the MoBo - in your opinion is the MoBo the stand on vessel?
------------

The question makes it clear that it is a narrow biyed channel and it also makes it clear that the sailing boats would impede the MoBo in that case.

There is no doubt about the rules on this given that situation - - so here is my question to you.

Do you not agree that the ruling covering my question is clear?

This is not a question about what is or what is not a narrow channel .... so you are down a road of your own which is not related to the question.

I repeat the rules make it clear that the answer to my question is that the MoBo is the stand on vessel - do you agree?

I am happy to discuss your points points once you have accepted the basic facts I have explained and stop resisting them.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

I don't accept the premise of your question. You say it is "a narrow channel" but do not define what that means, in relation to a 50-60' vessel.

Until you can say, with certainty (quoting some authority such as decided case law), whether any given channel will fall to be regarded as narrow in relation to any given vessel, you cannot say, with certainty, that rule 9 takes effect.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

Observer
The question assumes that it is a narrow channel that confines the boat - that is exactly what the rules state.It is a separate question as to what defines a narrow channel.

I put this simple question to you again - IF it is a narrow channel and if the large MoBo would be impeded by the sail boats crossing then the MoBo would be the stand on vessel - the rule covers this and I cannot see why you cannot just agree as its a black and white question covering a defined black and white situation.

Its like pulling teeth to get something so basic accepted. Once that is accepted I will happily discuss your points about what defines narrow etc. However its currently impossible to hold a rational debate with someone who does not accept a clear question were there is a clear rule to cover it.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Okay - if the rules are as precise and unambiguous as you claim, please explain, with reference to colregs, the following:

- what is "a narrow channel"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is ambiguous, but in Chichester harbour the rule is that if there are moorings laid, it is a narrow channel:

[ QUOTE ]
Narrow Channels (Rule 9)
All boats should keep to the right, and as close to the edge of the channel as is practical. Anchoring in a narrow channel breaks rule 9 as well as risking a serious accident.
The term narrow channel is relative and depends upon a vessels' means of propulsion, size, manoeuvrability and the prevailing conditions. For instance all vessels should treat mooring fairways as narrow channels whereas the main channels may only be considered narrow channels by large vessels.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rick
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

To nobody in particular ....

Would you agree that a 50-60' mobo will have a bow thruster?
Then he can turn on the spot
So he can come back from whence he came
Therefore he is not impeeded

There are no rules/guidelines for setting courses for races across channels, most race officers will avoid setting short courses in thrufares - but not all, sailing dinghies have as much right to use the water as everyone else.
 
Re: \'Sound Signals\'

[ QUOTE ]
Would you agree that a 50-60' mobo will have a bow thruster?
Then he can turn on the spot

[/ QUOTE ]

Dangerous assumption - like assuming that all large motor boats have twin engines (I don't, for instance).

Rick
 
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