Somali pirates

[Ubergeekian]

Anyway Somali pirates are pirates because thats what pays them the most dosh, they know that in the end the west will payup, the is no such thing as a legitimate livelihood in that area DOING ANYTHING will be harder than robbery and piracy, I take it that legitimate includes paying some taxes, GET A LIFE! it wont happen.

Yes, that's more or less what we have been saying. Their country is in complete chaos, the economy is non-existent, their fishing stocks have been destroyed ... as you have said. piracy is the easiest way they have to make a living.

Fish dont belong to Somalia so whats that all about? - the pirates are not even equipped for fishing AND since when did territorial waters extend 1000KM offshore? an open skiff 1000Km offshore? oh right he was out for long weekend then with a ladder, grapnel, RPG and AK47. . . . with no stores or fuel - perhaps he has a TARDIS to save time. . .

Phew. Let's take that lot in order. First of all, fish. Sure, individual fish don't belong to particular countries, but the concept of national waters and national fishing grounds is well established. Google "Cod war" if you want to see what happened when Iceland started getting serious about this. As for equipment - well of course they don;t have fishing kits with them. They are not fishermen doing a bit of piracy on the side, they are pirates who once were fishermen. And you do know they work from motherships, right?

Piracy is Thuggery and there is no excuse for it and the rules of engagement should reflect that, anyone that commits piracy on the high seas should expect to be fired upon with no quarter given. Julius Ceasar had the right idea.

As far as I am concerned, anybody actively trying to take over a vessel by force deserves anything they get. Some of the ideas suggested here - kill 'em all, kill a few at random, kill anyone who looks as if they might be a pirate - are totally unacceptable under international law and any system of ethics. We're the good guys, remember, and there are restrictions on what the Good Guys can do.

 

[Theshipscat]

To hell with that. I've had enough. Next time I'm in Cowes Yacht Haven (which might be this weekend) I'm going to blow them all to bits.

 

[binch]

Piracy suppression

This piracy was active in the immediate post-WW2 period.
In 1950 I was navigating officer of a frigate given the task of suppressing or inhibiting both piracy and slavery (which the somalis are also good at). Incidentally our crew contained 16 locally entered Somali seamen.
Of course the scale was less dramatic than now. It was mostly confined to 50 miles off-shore and the boats used were slower (but our own max speed was only 17 knots) but the problem was much the same.
In a wardroom conference it was agreed that we could do little as one solitary ship patrolling the coast between Cape Gardafui and the Kenyan border. The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy. (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length.
This solved the problem, but do remember that the Royal Navy at that time had considerable discretion. We were not controlled by a Minister and his bum-boys and only reported the results, not the methods used. At that time we had an effective navy.
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised.
Please also note that at that period, with much of the interior farming etc in the hands of white settlers, there was no famine or any other shortages. Those communities that remained peaceful enjoyed some small prosperity: their small-scale epidemics were sorted out. The suppresssion of slavery was popular, and there was a semblance of justice.
I say semblance; that is another story.
The Empire was by no means all bad.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy ... (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length. ...
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised..

Hardly surprising, is it, since you were threatening their own countrymen with draconian and extrajudicial group punishment? With tales like you tell it's easy to see why so much of Africa detests us.

 

[Algol]

The Captain's decision was to start at Socotra and work our way southwards, sending landing parties ashore at all ports and harbours to demand of the headman that he hand over those engaged in piracy. (Remember this was a British colony/protectorate at the time.) If he did not co-operate, we destroyed all boats in the harbour over 35 feet in length.
This solved the problem, but do remember that the Royal Navy at that time had considerable discretion. We were not controlled by a Minister and his bum-boys and only reported the results, not the methods used. At that time we had an effective navy.
Dealing with Somalis is not an ideal pleasure. The 16 we bore were a surly and difficult lot, especially when compared with the 18 Goanese who were civilised.
Please also note that at that period, with much of the interior farming etc in the hands of white settlers, there was no famine or any other shortages. Those communities that remained peaceful enjoyed some small prosperity: their small-scale epidemics were sorted out. The suppresssion of slavery was popular, and there was a semblance of justice.
I say semblance; that is another story.
The Empire was by no means all bad.

White supremacy, arbitrary military 'justice', economic exploitation, a hierarchy of 'races', homophobia. Nice eye opener there, Binch. No wonder the Nazis envied our empire.

 

[Pete7]

Yes, that's more or less what we have been saying. The country is in complete chaos, the economy is non-existent, their fishing stocks have been destroyed ... as you have said. piracy is the easiest way they have to make a living.

Are you talking about Somalia or England

 

[dmmbruce]

Why spend the money trying to force people who have virtually no other way of making a living from doing what they're doing. Better off helping Somalia rebuild, including having its own navy and coastguard so that its territorial waters are its own and fishermen can fish.

Sorry, but if you have been to Somalia (I have) you will realise that this sort of idea is just completely unrealistic!

Mike

 

[Ludd]

Fisher/pirates

Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?

As a corollary,let me pose a question: after all the blocking of bank accounts held by suspected terrorist groups and the changes in international banking practice whereby even Lichtenstein and the Swiss have had to divulge details of bank accounts,WHY haven't their accounts been blocked?

 

[Danny Jo]

Thread drift, I know, but this earns the "Freestyle Gold Thread Award". It has something to do with sailing, it is interesting and controversial, its protagonists' forthright comments are nonetheless polite, its contributors have shown intelligence unsullied by inebriety, but above all it is funny.

Edit: How's that for pompous flim-flam?

 

[Sandyman]

Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?

As a corollary,let me pose a question: after all the blocking of bank accounts held by suspected terrorist groups and the changes in international banking practice whereby even Lichtenstein and the Swiss have had to divulge details of bank accounts,WHY haven't their accounts been blocked?

Could the answer be because they were paid in cash. ??? $$$ cash at that and still no doubt they hold cash. Even poor Somalis are not stupid enough to put money into todays banking system.

 

[Ludd]

Could the answer be because they were paid in cash. ??? $$$ cash at that and still no doubt they hold cash. Even poor Somalis are not stupid enough to put money into todays banking system.

Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!

 

[Sandyman]

Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!

Could well be in some secret CIA bank account owned/run by a previous American Defense Secretary. Cant quite remember his name. The chap that runs the company supplying arms, oil refinement, food, private security services, weapons, banking services, arms & ammunition to anyone who can afford it & will swear in all honesty to support the American way of life.
Without taking the pi**

 

[Woodlouse]

Good point---but SOMEBODY knows where the millions are,doubt if they're holding cash.As I said,they are not POOR Somalis!

I bet they are holding it as cash. And if they don't then they hold it as watches, fancy cars, guns and women. Any investing won't be with a bank, but in a fast boat, an RPG and six men who want to be rich.

 

[Sandyman]

I bet they are holding it as cash. And if they don't then they hold it as watches, fancy cars, guns and women. Any investing won't be with a bank, but in a fast boat, an RPG and six men who want to be rich.

Dont anyone read the news ??? what else would they do with large wadges of wanga ??
Buy expensive boats, cars, champers, gold, legit co's, etc etc Exactly what they have done.
Nod and a Wink money laundering without a trace.

 

[Ludd]

Money laundering?

Dont anyone read the news ??? what else would they do with large wadges of wanga ??
Buy expensive boats, cars, champers, gold, legit co's, etc etc Exactly what they have done.
Nod and a Wink money laundering without a trace.

Honestly, what would these poor misguided hard-done by Somali fishermen know of such things?

 

[Algol]

Somali navy chief: World's worst job?

"We used to be among the top navies in Africa. We had ships that carried deadly missiles and we had 10 battalions covering the whole coast," said Mr Omar."

The 'benefit' of Somalia's pirates

"The massive factory trawlers which used to drain their fish stocks have been scared away and that means there is a huge bounty for local fishermen as well as helping to restore the health of the marine eco-system."

 

[Theshipscat]

According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Somali doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by Somali standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Russian Mafia, the mafia and any other bent organisation (USA). The exchange rate is probably almost as bad as the £ to Euro.

(Actually the Mafia are being prosecuted for paying someone to scuttle three ships that are full of toxic waste).

The fishing thing is an excuse used by the Somalis. The fishermen of Seahouses in Northumberland have really missed an opportunity.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Anyone who at this stage believes that the thugs attacking unarmed vessels with ak47s and rpgs are poor deprived fishermen needs a reality check!
That MAY have been true initially,but you are now looking at a highly organised "industry".
Do any of you believe that the average EUROPEAN fisherman could organise the transfer of massive sums of money to untraceable bank accounts(obviously untraceable,or would have been frozen) ? Do any of you believe that the money extorted benefits the average Somali ?

You're quite right - it has evolved way beyond its origins. From what I read, though, most of the blokes whizzing around with RPGs are relatively poorly paid employees of the well financed brains behind the schemes. I am 100% in favour of going after the brains, and that should certainly include financially. However we should also if possible work towards giving the employees something else to do.

Some parallels with Afghanistan and Columbia where in both cases the west have been trying physical eradication of the only really profitable cash crops - opium and coca respectively. It just doesn't work unless you/we make sure that there is an alternative way for the farmers to make money.

 

[Theshipscat]

According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Isle of wighter doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by isle of Wight standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho, the Harbour Master. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Folly Mafia, the Yarmouth mafia and any other dodgy organisation (RYA).

There's got be a link.

 

[Algol]

According to that ex Eastenders bloke, Ross Kemp, when he did that (terrible) program for the beeb about modern day pirates. The average Isle of wighter doesn't have a clue and never sees a cent of the money. The men who carry out crimes don't see much of it either but are wealthy by isle of Wight standards. They are merely paid thugs. The money goes to the head honcho, the Harbour Master. Who as already stated washes it and buys or invests it where ever he wishes. It probably involves several groups, the Folly Mafia, the Yarmouth mafia and any other dodgy organisation (RYA).

*chortle*