Solent Yacht Delivery Suggestions

laika said:
If that were universally true then any minicab driver would be a better driver than your average "non-professional" member of the IAM for whom driving was a passion but realised that law, medicine or whatever paid more and let them spend every weekend on the track.

Note that I specifically said "random professional skipper". Hopefully you will concede that there is a range of abilities.

Let's assume the boat owner has the same paper qualifications as the delivery skipper. They have PPR even if they don't have PPE.
Said boat owner has intimate knowledge of how their boat handles, where everything is stored, the quirks of the engine, which locker those spare shackles were in, all those "yeah it jams if you do that too quickly" quirks. They know the callsign and the mmsi off by heart and they're intimately familiar with the local area because they sail it every weekend. They'll also know the local area and the marina so faff and social contact to locate the boat is minimised.

I'm not saying 200+k miles, day in day out for years on hundreds of different boats doesn't make a greybeard skipper more prepared for anything than a "non-professional" with only a few 10s of thousand miles but that wasn't sarabande's contention. A demonstrably competent person, possibly with rather more delivery experience than someone in their first delivery job, sailing their own boat in their local area is no bigger risk than many "professionals" who may be unfamiliar with the boat or the area

And we're talking a 6/7 mile trip: the boat owner has probably done *that particular trip* more times than the pro who has greater total seatime, but gained elsewhere...
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No sure I would class a y minicab driver as a professional, even though he does it for payment, he is no better than anyone else with a driving licence.
Neither does 200+k, if its offshore/ocean, only close quarters boat experience counts in this case.
 
capnsensible said:
So whats all the fuss about pro skippersmoving boats then?
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Little Grebe opened by suggesting a professional skipper might be required to move boats 7 miles.
Sarabande commented that hiring a "professional" would offer little reduction in risk to the community over the boat owner doing it themselves.
Assuming the boat owner is demonstrably competent I was agreeing. A professional skipper with experience of 300 different boats in 30 different countries will be far better able to jump right into an unfamiliar boat in an unfamiliar country than the average boat owner, but it doesn't necessarily make them more competent at doing a simple trip than said boat owner who has done that trip 100 times in a boat they are very familiar with.
If we agree the task is trivial in either case then "no appreciably lower risk simply because you paid someone else to do it" still applies
 
I think you can pedant this round whatever way you like, but the pro at anything, who has been trained and practises a job day in, day out, for oodles of time is always gonna be better than the best intentioned amateur. Thats life.....
 
capnsensible said:
I think you can pedant this round whatever way you like, but the pro at anything, who has been trained and practises a job day in, day out, for oodles of time is always gonna be better than the best intentioned amateur. Thats life.....
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What concerns me is that because of the amount of variables in this, no-one can say that a decades-experienced delivery skipper is going to be better than a spotty teenage yard boat driver (both of whom are 'professionals' in the marina owner's terminology, or even than a RYA Oc ean Yachtmaster sailing hi sonw boat that he has owned for yonks in waters that he knows infinitely better than the d-eds, or the stybd.

I find the marina's risk assessment faulty and invalid.
 
Little Grebe said:
It is possible that that the local harbour master is going to require boats either being towed or moved by a professional to their summer mooring rather than by their owners.

The practical benefit of this is eluding me right now

Any recommendations would be appreciated - the trip from the hoist to my normal berth is about 7 miles
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I have been approached by quite a few people about this very issue. The yacht owners that have contacted me live a long way away from their boats and we have lots of delivery skippers that live very close to the major harbours, so it really is just a question of minimising long distance travel.

The other issue is that you are currently allowed to travel for work (if you can't work at home), so a commercial delivery becomes more viable within the government guidelines.

Pete
 
capnsensible said:
I think you can pedant this round whatever way you like, but the pro at anything, who has been trained and practises a job day in, day out, for oodles of time is always gonna be better than the best intentioned amateur. Thats life.....
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To refute only the general "pro at anything" part, I refer you to minicab drivers, throw in "IT support professionals" and any number of counter examples where being paid to do something day in day out is no guarantee of excellence. You seem to overlook that in Yachting "professional" training is undertaken by many people who want to sail to a certain standard, but the remuneration at the bottom of the "Professional " tree is only viable for those with another source of income (pensions, rich parents). Moving a boat 7 miles from a hoist to a mooring is hardly high-end stuff and is not a job likely to attract the yachting elite. Is the 20 year old trustafarian "professional" who just completed a delivery company's internship program really going to be less of a risk to the community than an "amateur" with 30+ years experience and yachtmaster certificate who just makes more money being a dentist, sailing their own boat on a route they know like the back of their hand?

I'm not doing down your undoubted experience or attempting to dismiss the value of anyone's experience "in the general case". I am challenging the contention that familiarity with particular (very local) waters and the idiosyncrasies of a particular boat on a very short trip countfor nothing, that being paid for a task necessarily draws a competence gulf between professionals (of any age or experience) and "amateurs" (of any age or experience) and that for a task this trivial the risk to the community will be dramatically decreased by the hiring of a "professional" assuming the boat owner has a reasonable degree of competence.

The technicalities of government guidance which Pete points out above are undoubtedly pertinent in many cases right now but what's up for debate is your contention that sarabande can't sail his own boat 6 miles In waters he knows as safely as a random delivery skipper.
 
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what's up for debate is your contention that sarabande can't sail his own boat 6 miles In waters he knows as safely as a random delivery skipper.

But that isnt my 'contention'. At all.....
 
I cannot see how a "professional" will offer a significant reduction in risk management for a boat move, when th eowner is more intimately aware of the boat's handling characteristics and more familiar with location and deployment of the boat's emergency equipment.

I can.....
 
capnsensible said:
I cannot see how a "professional" will offer a significant reduction in risk management for a boat move, when th eowner is more intimately aware of the boat's handling characteristics and more familiar with location and deployment of the boat's emergency equipment.

I can.....
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capnsensible said:
what's up for debate is your contention that sarabande can't sail his own boat 6 miles In waters he knows as safely as a random delivery skipper.

But that isnt my 'contention'. At all.....
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The above two statements would appear to be contradictory. I am quite prepared to concede I have misunderstood but more elaboration on "I can..." perhaps needed
 
Take gosport boatyard. Moorings and a yard. They move many boats in and out of marinas, boat yards and moorings. I wouldn't even like to guess how many.
One of these guys would have far more skills in tricky close quarter situations. They will always tow, maybe use the yachts rudder for additional steering.
Would people really let a stranger who knows nothing of their boat move it under its own power ?
 
Look at the risk, what risks are they trying to avoid.
The primary concern being spread of the virus. How’s is the risk of spreading the virus minimized. Rather than the rest of the usual risks.
Not being a virus Xspurt. I don’t know the answer.
My guess.
An owner.
Who lives within a reasonable distance. Who can answer the same questions, I have to answer to travel by charter air, should be a reasonable acceptable risk to move his own boat.
The questions, as best I can remember
Have you been out of the country in the last 14 days
Have you had any cold or flue like symptoms in the last 14 days
Have you been in contact with anyone who has tested positive in the last 14 days
Have you been in contact with anyone who is currently being evaluated for covid 19
Have you been in contact with anyone who has cold or flue like symptoms in the last 14 days.
Have you got a face mask Or covering.

I won’t be hiring or even contemplating hiring a delivery skipper. My harbour authority has decided the best response is to extend winter moorage month by month as the situation requires, the harbour closed to transient moorage any way.
So the boat will stay where she is for the time being.

If I was going to the hired skipper would have to be able to answer all the above questions. I personally can’t see how a hired skipper would be a lower risk to spread the virus. Actually if they have been moving boats I would presume the risk is higher.

Reality my crew lives in the same house as me, she is the lowest risk person, to act as crew, if we move the boat. We can even bring the dog along for a walk.

If you need to move your boat.
Make a plan, with a simple task analysis, explaining, what you are going to do.
particularly explain what your plan is to mitigate possible spread of virus,
The precautions you will take to ensure you and your crew do not bring the virus to the boats location.
The precautions you take to ensure you and your crew do not contract the virus at the boats location and take it home.
 
Not many boatyards will tow a boat alongside 6-7 miles, if this is what is being asked. Usually only in sheltered waters near to the boatyard. Most of the workboat handlers who do this are very skilled, though you might just meet someone less so.
 
Refueler said:
There is actually a very good reason they tow or put boat alongside workboat for the job ... if they open up the boat to get inside - they are not insured against any claim.

Its same as when my boat was launched before I got back to UK ... it was lifted in ... workboat then moved her to pontoon. When I arrived few days later - marina advised me that something is wrong as boat was deep in the water and very tender ... literally rolling about.
She was half full of rainwater from standing on the hard and drains had blocked.
I asked them why they didn't open her and check ...

Reply was that if the opened her or used any gear on her - they would be 'outside' their insurance and could be liable.
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So where's the duty of care owed to clients in all this?

If they failed to check that my boat was in a fit condition to launch, and she was damaged or sunk, I'd be talking to a solicitor PDQ. OK, if I'm there. it's my responsibility to check, but if I'm not, then can they really wriggle out of what, to a legal layman, seems like pure negligence.
 
sarabande said:
It sounds as if someone with a recent Day Skipper qualification has decided to start up a support business delivering boats.
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Your comment reminds me of the request for feedback from the MCA last year regarding their proposals for professional maintenance of boats. Nowhere did the word 'competent' figure within their proposed notices and when I asked why, they responded that it would be difficult to be satisfied that an owner was competent by lack of formal training.

Oh, and I guess it means that they want boat owners to pay so called marine professionals* to move your boat. This means our bank account will take a hit, you will provide work to a local person and there will be no 'pleasure' involved in the moving of your leisure craft.

As others have suggested, I'd consider waiting for restrictions to be lifted before doing anything unless something forces your hand, unless you wish to formally appoint your friend to deliver your boat for a nominal sum. This would necessitate you paying him £1.00 and producing the paperwork to authorise him to move your boat from A to B. You might, coincidentally, be on board at the time to supply him with sandwiches, etc.

*Yes there are some very good marine professionals. And others that I would never trust again after what they have done to my/friends' boats.
 
Stemar said:
So where's the duty of care owed to clients in all this?

If they failed to check that my boat was in a fit condition to launch, and she was damaged or sunk, I'd be talking to a solicitor PDQ. OK, if I'm there. it's my responsibility to check, but if I'm not, then can they really wriggle out of what, to a legal layman, seems like pure negligence.
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One Marina I used to keep my boat at would not launch if they didn't have a set of keys and would check the obvious points of ingress while the boat was afloat but still in the slings.
 
jwilson said:
Not many boatyards will tow a boat alongside 6-7 miles,
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I agree that is a long distance. A straight line tow would be used then swopping over to along side when manourverability is required.
People can be controled to reduce risk when going shopping so surely similar could happen to allow an owner to move his boat?
 
Stemar said:
So where's the duty of care owed to clients in all this?

If they failed to check that my boat was in a fit condition to launch, and she was damaged or sunk, I'd be talking to a solicitor PDQ. OK, if I'm there. it's my responsibility to check, but if I'm not, then can they really wriggle out of what, to a legal layman, seems like pure negligence.
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The duty of care is in completing the Clients request. If in doing so - damage or loss occurs through workers actions - then they are liable.
But in my case of a flooded boat ASHORE - I was unaware of - they have no responsibility regarding and as such completed my request. They safely launched and secured the boat.

When I asked why they launched a boat that was clearly much heavier than usual ... and saw its draft when afloat - they did not check why - they were sympathetic but explained that they do not open / enter boats to check as Insurance does not cover them. It is owners matter.

I appreciate your post - but I am sure a Solicitor would arrive at same conclusion.

In the matter of moving a boat to a mooring - then their obligation is to do so safely and to make fast in reasonable and safe manner. If they hit something or damage the boat through their actions in completing operation - then sure - go for them.
 
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