Solent Sailing Yachts Admonished

oceanfroggie said:
We are merely playing in toy boats for leisure, they are earning a living and fueling the economy. We are unlicensed amateurs, they are qualified professionals going about their work...
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Putting it in bold doesn't make it any more convincing. Just because someone is being paid to do their work doesn't give them any greater rights than me. I've earnt my leisure time by working as well.
 
rather the big problem is the lack of manoeuvrability, and the lack of space.
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And there we have the two types of commercial traffic in the solent - the big stuff that comes in and out who can't see sqwat and stand no chance of changing their plans because of some twit in a boat and the smaller big stuff who can turn on a sixpence and ply their trade within the solent ....
 
Snooks could not have made it clearer: ABP are managing an operation fraught with risk and in direct conflict with the way non-commercial vessels use the Solent. When the tragedy finally happens, leading to loss of life and or environmental disaster, will it be held as good enough that the harbourmaster wrote his polite note to anybody who may have been paying attention?
ABP need to do more to raise awareness of the problem; they need to far better define the main channel with additional buoyage; All ships should have a patrol boat in attendance; the MPZ should be policed with a patrol boat stationed at 1000m ahead and at least two additional patrol vessels should be in attendance; Masters should required use sound signals when making the Thorn channel turn and at regular intervals in other parts of the channel.
 
ABP need to do more to raise awareness of the problem; they need to far better define the main channel with additional buoyage; All ships should have a patrol boat in attendance; the MPZ should be policed with a patrol boat stationed at 1000m ahead and at least two additional patrol vessels should be in attendance; Masters should required use sound signals when making the Thorn channel turn and at regular intervals in other parts of the channel.
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Really? I mean - given the 0000's of accidents each year I'm surpised it doesn't get more press .... [/irony]
 
laurance said:
Snooks could not have made it clearer: ABP are managing an operation fraught with risk and in direct conflict with the way non-commercial vessels use the Solent. When the tragedy finally happens, leading to loss of life and or environmental disaster, will it be held as good enough that the harbourmaster wrote his polite note to anybody who may have been paying attention?
ABP need to do more to raise awareness of the problem; they need to far better define the main channel with additional buoyage; All ships should have a patrol boat in attendance; the MPZ should be policed with a patrol boat stationed at 1000m ahead and at least two additional patrol vessels should be in attendance; Masters should required use sound signals when making the Thorn channel turn and at regular intervals in other parts of the channel.
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This is not needed the 'area of concern' is well publicised, its in every almanac and on the charts. Trouble is to many leisure boat owners just ignore rules, 'they know best'

Quote from another recent col regs thread explains the philosophy of many:

"Rules are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools as someone once said."
 
laurance said:
Snooks could not have made it clearer: ABP are managing an operation fraught with risk and in direct conflict with the way non-commercial vessels use the Solent. When the tragedy finally happens, leading to loss of life and or environmental disaster, will it be held as good enough that the harbourmaster wrote his polite note to anybody who may have been paying attention?
ABP need to do more to raise awareness of the problem; they need to far better define the main channel with additional buoyage; All ships should have a patrol boat in attendance; the MPZ should be policed with a patrol boat stationed at 1000m ahead and at least two additional patrol vessels should be in attendance; Masters should required use sound signals when making the Thorn channel turn and at regular intervals in other parts of the channel.
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Do you sail in the central Solent often?
The big ships often do have a patrol boat. The channel is pretty well defined, although it pays to have a check-chart on deck. Sound signals are not really very useful when the turn is commenced before the ship is in earshot.
It is really not that much more fraught with risk than the rest of the English Channel. It requires some care and respect but has an excellent safety record. For the number of yachts present, the incidence of 'events which cause concern' is actually very low. Most of these conflicts are with smaller, more agile/less predictable ships such as IoW ferries.
Perhaps all the ships in the English Channel need three patrol boats to avoid Ouzo type tragedies?

I'm not saying be complacent, Snooks' post explaining the ship captains view helps us to understand what they are doing. Maybe more info could be given out by VTS. Maybe VTS could work better with race officers to ensure that races are not lost by giving ships a wide berth? (after all these ships don't just turn up from nowhere do they? Presumably VTS know they are coming/going well in advance?)

One thing to remember around the East and Central Solent is that you are never very far from shallow water where the ships don't go!
 
galadriel said:
... Trouble is to many leisure boat owners just ignore rules...
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I don't think there are so many people recklessly taking on large ships in the Solent. I think it is most often bad judgement - over estimating their own speed and under estimating the speed of the approaching ship, probably combined with not spotting it soon enough. People are also not always aware where the boat will turn.

I almost got caught out by the opposite situation a few weeks back crossing from Beaulieu to Cowes to the west of the area of concern - a ship coming from the east didn't turn past the Brambles to head up Southampton Water as I expected, he carried on west towards Hurst.

There are a lot of judgements to be made when mixing with the big boys and people don't seem to be getting it that wrong or you would be regularly hearing of small boats being mown down - I can't remember the last time it happened.
 
lw395 said:
Maybe VTS could work better with race officers to ensure that races are not lost by giving ships a wide berth? (after all these ships don't just turn up from nowhere do they? Presumably VTS know they are coming/going well in advance?)
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VTS web site has shipping movements a couple of days in advance
 
lw395 said:
Do you sail in the central Solent often?

Not only often but both for pleasure and occupation, I am a passed holder of a Soton Pilot Exemption Certificate. That still does does not make me above errors, I was recently told off by the MPZ patrol boat for crossing 800m ahead of a ship approaching Calshot from the south. 800m eh? not easy to judge the difference between 1000m and 800m. (why did ABP suddenly decide on metres as a measurement of linear distance at sea?) The truth is was so preoccupied controlling an inexperienced crew on a windy day that I had not even seen the vessel approaching. The distance between Calshot and the start of the turn into the Thorn is a mile and a half, that vessel's sound signal would have been perfectly audible at that distance.
We all know how easy is is to be distracted by the concerns of our immediate environment on a yacht; bouncing around a choppy Solent trying to control crew and sails; keeping a grip on the movements other yachts; our position in relation to hazards and the changing status of the shipping channel, one moment safe to navigate moments later distinctly threatening. I would not expect members of the bridge team making their run through the Solent with clenched sphincters to feel too much concern with yacht skipper's own problems in staying out of the way.
Yes there have been no disasters yet, but the great number of near-misses has prompted this response from the Harbourmaster. ABP are responsible for the safe management of traffic in the Solent, they make the rules that all vessels must adhere to to achieve that aim and must police them accordingly. Is this letter really the best they can come up with in response to the concerns raised?
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laurance

I think the rationale behind the letter is that it could be produced in evidence to support ABP's supposition that they have done everything they could to reduce the risks. It's an exculpatory shot across the bows, in a way.

I wonder what sort of discussions go on in the training sessions for pilots and VLCC masters. Do they really give consideration to a situation where they have a choice between ramming an errant raggie or mobo, and running themselves bows first into Gurnard Point ?

How much pressure do/can insurance companies put on them to reduce risks, and how much does it cost to delay a typical Fawley tanker for one day ?


Does anyone know of a professional 'ships master' forum where one could browse for vies and opinions ?
 
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laurance said:
Yes there have been no disasters yet, but the great number of near-misses has prompted this response from the Harbourmaster. ABP are responsible for the safe management of traffic in the Solent, they make the rules that all vessels must adhere to to achieve that aim and must police them accordingly. Is this letter really the best they can come up with in response to the concerns raised?
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I remain unconvinced that the number of real 'near misses' is very great at all.
How many logged incidents are we talking of?
How many '5 hoot' encounters on a typical day? I hear these from the IoW ferries at home, and very few of them are serious 'near miss' events.

Also the whistle of a >200m ship is supposed to be audible at 2nm (colregs annex3), but that will be in still air. Sound attenuation in a turbulent F4 will be very significant.

And yes we all make mistakes, but a friend of mine can say from first hand experience that a real man's near miss is when the ferry captain is screaming 'BOAT STATIONS' over the tannoy!

There are probably more near misses in the road outside ABP offices.
But let's keep it that way.
 
Sarabande,

Remind me not to play scrabble with you..exculpatory. Yes a shot across the bows and and arse covering exercise but effective as neither.
Intriguing moral question you raise, loss of life over financial loss or environmental damage. Don't expect they stay up very late discussing these questions.
 
[QUOTE ] VTS web site has shipping movements a couple of days in advance
Didn't do us much good in the '96 RTI when summat arrived early, starts were paused, so hundreds of competitors missed the tide at the Needles and had to retire.

Re Elisar's head in sand:

" Did you notice the date on it?
First I've seen of it so maybe it wasn't very well publicised, and therefore a bit pointless."

It was dated March 18th.

It is our legal obligation to be aware of all local rules & regs - Solas V I recall - with no reprieve for ignorance. Particularly when, if you sign up for NTM's from Southampton, Portsmouth, Cowes, Hamble, Langstone and Chichester (to name a few), you are e-mailed with every item as it hits the fan.
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Well let's change the phrasing then, near-misses implies a rather more serious incident than what I expect are the majority of cases: vessels have merely failed to 'deconflict' (another choice Competant Harbour Authority word)
I am ambivalent about these comparisons between what is regarded as acceptable risk on the roads and that at sea. There is certainly a huge disparity there.
 
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