Solent Sailing Yachts Admonished

[Litotes]

It's funny, though. The traffic into the Haven Ports (Harwich, Felixstowe, Ipswich, Mistley and Manningtree) is just as concentrated as that at Southampton, and the Landguard turn is as sharp as that of the Thorn Channel. But we very rarely see complaints from Harwich Harbour Authority. Where does the difference lie?

I have long suspected the answer to that question. The Solent attracts not only a lot of the finest sailors in the world, but also a lot of occasional sailors and people for whom sailing is somehow seen as "glamorous" or for whom it is just one amongst many different leisure pursuits in which they participate.

Sailing on the east coast is not "glamorous" (the mud sees to that) In many ways it is more demanding than Solent sailing, for example because of the shifting banks, tidal conditions etc. and it also takes more planning. Very few of us can just jump in the boat and go whenever we feel like it. We have to think ahead and know the exact state of the tide at all times. Also, of course, marina hopping isn't quite such an easy option (except, perhaps, on the Orwell, which has become the Hamble of the east) and "apres sail" activities are pretty much limited to a selection of very good pubs - if you can get ashore, of course.

Of course, the east coast is a lot less crowded, so there are simply fewer boats and, thus a smaller number of less competent sailors. But it is also less attractive to the the occasional sailors and the ones who sail for reasons other than a dedicated love of boats, sailing and all things nautical. Sunsail certainly isn't interested in us!

No criticism of the Solent intended. Some of the finest sailors in the land sail there. But the characters of the two areas are very different.

 

[DavenHelen]

Go one then, elaborate? It should be lots of fun if you don't understand operating a large ship of this type.

Surely it would be safer to enter at a slower speed and if they did it would be easier for people to keep out of the way.

If it is purely about commercial pressures then it is equivalent to saying the HGVs should be allowed to do 90 and everyone else has to stay out of the way.

 

[Litotes]

Surely it would be safer to enter at a slower speed and if they did it would be easier for people to keep out of the way.

No doubt the professionals can answer that one, but I imagine they have to travel at the speed required to maintain the necessary level of manoeuvrability.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Imho the COLREGS need updating anyway to give commercial shipping right of way over all leisure craft including sail, and in all circumstances. It's jurassic to think that some tw0t operating a winch thinks they are the stand on vessel when an 60,000 ton cargo vessel is approaching. Darwin comes to mind.

 

[DavenHelen]

Imho the COLREGS need updating anyway to give commercial shipping right of way over all leisure craft including sail, and in all circumstances.

You would need to clearly define Leisure...e.g. Instructor being paid to provide training - Commercial?

 

[islandsailor]

Surely it would be safer to enter at a slower speed and if they did it would be easier for people to keep out of the way.

If it is purely about commercial pressures then it is equivalent to saying the HGVs should be allowed to do 90 and everyone else has to stay out of the way.

Nothing at all to do with commercial pressures and all about maintaining steerage.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Imho the COLREGS need updating anyway to give commercial shipping right of way over all leisure craft including sail, and in all circumstances. It's jurassic to think that some tw0t operating a winch thinks they are the stand on vessel when an 60,000 ton cargo vessel is approaching. Darwin comes to mind.

I agree with you, but many people ignore, dont know or think they know better than the col regs that exist, you only have to look at the replies from some in the motoring cone thread in PBO!

I do beleive there is a moveing exclusion zone that is in force in the area North of Cowes, so whats the point in new regs if the existing ones are not obeyed?

 

[[2068]]

Some reading this thread might put 2 and 2 together and conclude that large commercial vessels need to be doing 20kts to maintain steerage

Several of the larger vessels need the assistance of a tug to make the turn: add in a long steel cable under lots of tension into the equation and you have even more reasons why small craft should keep well clear of the whole operation.

 

[lw395]

It pays to remember that very few collisions actually occur between yachts and commercial vessels. How many in the Solent in the last 10 years?

Also be very wary of telephoto pictures showing yachts about to be mowed down. The ship may well be pointing straight at a yacht, but the ship may well be turning. It's quite easy to take such a photo where the yacht is in no danger whatsoever, because it is only in 5m of water and the ship draws 12m.

Of course people need reminding and the harbour authorities must be active in promoting safety, but it's easy to get things out of proportion.

Another facet of this issue is whether Southampton water is really a suitable place for more and more big ships (Dibden Bay?) given the importance of yachting to the local economy.

 

[l'escargot]

Imho the COLREGS need updating anyway to give commercial shipping right of way over all leisure craft including sail, and in all circumstances...

That would be ridiculously dangerous. Collisions between leisure and commercial vessels would go from practically non existent to a regular occurance.

Anyway, what makes commercial interests more important than leisure interests?

 

[glashen]

That would be ridiculously dangerous. Collisions between leisure and commercial vessels would go from practically non existent to a regular occurance.

Anyway, what makes commercial interests more important than leisure interests?

Why? because leisure sailors can't keep out of the way? Many of us do think that those involved in earning a living do rate above us out for a jolly. I'm not sure I'd go as far as all commercial vessels having right of way all the time, but in circumstances when sail should give way in accordance with the regs many don't get it, so a blanket right of way could get the message over maybe like Fishing boats vessels they could fly a signal to indicate they take precedence, and why should fishing boats have Right of way if you don't think large container ships merit it.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I agree with you, but many people ignore, dont know or think they know better than the col regs that exist, you only have to look at the replies from some in the motoring cone thread in PBO!

I do beleive there is a moveing exclusion zone that is in force in the area North of Cowes, so whats the point in new regs if the existing ones are not obeyed?

DO you really agree with Froggie? He is saying in all circumstances, not just the solent, that sails gives way to commercial. I think he is trying to start a troll on the subject!!!!

 

[snooks]

Surely it would be safer to enter at a slower speed and if they did it would be easier for people to keep out of the way.

If it is purely about commercial pressures then it is equivalent to saying the HGVs should be allowed to do 90 and everyone else has to stay out of the way.

I think this might show why the letter was written....A lack of understanding of what the shipping has to go through to get into Southampton

From memory (about 6 years ago so it might be a bit fuzzy) the ships start slowing down south of St Cats, they pick up a pilot at the nab. They then proceed along the eastern Solent at about 20 knots, with their prop spinning away at all of 72RPM, yep just seventy two. They go through the turn off Cowes at around 14 knots (which feels like 5 knots) and keep slowing down all the way to the docks.

They travel at around 20 knots, as correctly said, to maintain steerage, but also they only have a short time/tide window when the tide is high enough over the shallowest part of their track. If they miss that window, they could miss a tide window further around the world, the same ships are usually in port on the same days of the week which make the port operation more predictable. If they miss their slot in Southampton they could be a day late by the time they get to Rotterdam for example

Not only do deep drafted ships come in at high tide, they also have to let deep drafted ships up at Southampton out. There may be as little as 1 metre under part of the ship as they go through the turn. So in order to get the ships in and out, speed is very much of the essence. There is only an hour or two to get the deep drafted ships in and out, which is why they always seem to come at once!!

The exact route the ship will take depends on its load, draft, tide, and wind speed and direction. All this will be worked out to the degree. The ship can be steered down to 0.1 of a degree, but as they go around the turn they may have less than a 10-20 metre margin of error.

I hope that helps explain why they have to travel at the speeds they do.

 

[[2068]]

Imho the COLREGS need updating anyway to give commercial shipping right of way over all leisure craft including sail,

I don't think that's the answer: big tankers can do 18-20kts and expecting a sailing vessel capable of maybe 7kts to be able to avoid a faster vessel that might also be turning is unreasonable.

I think the moving prohibited zone is a good thing, and should possibly be extended Eastwards a bit. Keeping the commercial traffic apart from smaller vessels in crowded waters seems a better approach than giving tankers the "right" to flatten everything in their path

 

[[2068]]

IThey travel at around 20 knots, as correctly said, to maintain steerage

Really?
I thought they travelled at 20kts to maintain their schedule

 

[oceanfroggie]

Anyway, what makes commercial interests more important than leisure interests?

We are merely playing in toy boats for leisure, they are earning a living and fueling the economy. We are unlicensed amateurs, they are qualified professionals going about their work.

In aviation ATC and air regs ensure private light aircraft keep out of the way of commercial air transport at all times. There is no way a 777 is going to be delayed or inconvenienced by an anemic stick instect piper, or cessna light aircraft.

 

[snooks]

Really?
I thought they travelled at 20kts to maintain their schedule

You just had to read two word on to where I said "but also"

 

[fireball]

There is no way a 777 is going to be delayed or inconvenienced by an anemic stick instect piper, or cessna light aircraft.

I think you'll find it has nothing to do with being delayed on inconvenienced - but to do with Safety ...
Most light aircraft are travelling around the 777 takeoff speed, the 777 cannot slow down or easily take avoiding manouvers without affecting the next jumbo behind him ...
and the commercials are all traffic controlled ... and to a certain extent so are the light aircraft around airfields - cos a prang is almost certainly going to result in a death ...

If you're going to go down the route of "commercial has right of way" ... then if I charter my boat for several billion £'s to some stupid oik daft enough to pay it then can I go where I want when I want because I'm "earning more money" and "fueling the economy" more than the containor ship next to me?
Go down that route and we'll have to declare the value of our boat and so you get Right of Way over boats worth less than you.... could make it more interesting in the solent at least!!

 

[[2068]]

The aviation model is based on control and separation, not "Jumbo has right of way".

 

[maxi77]

I think you'll find it has nothing to do with being delayed on inconvenienced - but to do with Safety ...
Most light aircraft are travelling around the 777 takeoff speed, the 777 cannot slow down or easily take avoiding manouvers without affecting the next jumbo behind him ...
and the commercials are all traffic controlled ... and to a certain extent so are the light aircraft around airfields - cos a prang is almost certainly going to result in a death ...

If you're going to go down the route of "commercial has right of way" ... then if I charter my boat for several billion £'s to some stupid oik daft enough to pay it then can I go where I want when I want because I'm "earning more money" and "fueling the economy" more than the containor ship next to me?
Go down that route and we'll have to declare the value of our boat and so you get Right of Way over boats worth less than you.... could make it more interesting in the solent at least!!

To be honest all that is really required is for the liesure user to apply some CDF to the problem. It makes sense for commercial shipping not to be impeded by liesure craft, it is good for safety to. If recreationbal users actually paid some attention to wwhat is going on around them and applied said CDF to the situation then these probles would largely not exist. In general the two key problems seem to be lack of keeping a good look out and being bl**dy pig headed.

At the end of the day it matters little what actual speed the merchant ship in the Solent is doing, as long as it is swithin the rules, rather the big problem is the lack of manoeuvrability, and the lack of space. Equally it is easy for us to see where they are going but much more difficult for them to know where we are going