Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Advantages & disadvantages of both?
All input gratefully received.
All input gratefully received.
Solent rig or cutter rig?
- Thread starter Koeketiene
- Start date
chrishelen
N/A
On the plus side Cutter rig gives you more sail options,ease of handling,less heel, and a better balanced boat.
On the minus side,more ropes in the cockpit,Isail my boat as a cutter. I am not familiar with Solent rig.
On the minus side,more ropes in the cockpit,Isail my boat as a cutter. I am not familiar with Solent rig.
Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
We have a cutter rig, and think its great. I did a Google search and found the following:
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The cutter rig is just a sloop rig with an additional forestay and jib known as a staysail. This is one of the most versatile sail rigs available, since you get a lot of the sloop rig simplicity along with the option of using a staysail. The staysail can come in handy in light winds when more sail area is needed, in extremely heavy winds when you take down the jib and only a small headsail is needed, or running straight down-wind when you sheet it in all the way to act as a roll-stabalizer. Also, staysails are often self-tending club-footed sails (mounted on a minerature boom), so if you have to short tack a long ways you can take down the jib and then tack repeatedly without having to re-sheet anything. The main disadvantage is that tacking with a jib up becomes more difficult, since the sail has to come back between the cutter stay and the fore stay. This is particulary difficult when using a very large jib.
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Cutter rigs are generally masthead rigs in order to get enough area forward of the mast for the second forestay and sail. A cutter rig allows for more sail combinations to meet changing wind conditions over long cruises. It is also a very balanced rig for offshore cruising. When winds come up, the headsail can be furled and the small inner sail, or staysail, and the main keep the boat balanced and moving in heavy weather. Another benefit to the cutter is that the staysail, on certain designs like the Island Packets, can be put on a self-tacking boom and is controlled by a single line. The sail's draft is set with the outhaul on the boom and stays perfectly trimmed through each tack. A cutter rig is an ideal cruising rig for a shorthanded crew. The downside is that it i a more expensive rig and with a large genoa on the headstay, tacking can be slow coming across the inner forestay. Small compromise for the safety and ease of handling for a couple sailing the world.
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The only thing I would add to these is that when using the staysail as a storm jib, you bring the centre of effort towards the mast and keep the boat balanced (small jib and small main, both very close to the mast). With a furled genoa you have a small main near the mast and a small jib area very far forwards thus causing an imbalance in the boat set-up.
The solent rig effectively has two headsails as they are both mounted well forwards (as I understand it), so its great for say trade wind sailing down wind. But it isn't designed to carry both foresails at the same time except on a dead run, and you get the problem noted above of unbalanced rig when heavily reefed.
There is a good discussion here on the exact question you ask:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39750
Jonny
[ QUOTE ]
The cutter rig is just a sloop rig with an additional forestay and jib known as a staysail. This is one of the most versatile sail rigs available, since you get a lot of the sloop rig simplicity along with the option of using a staysail. The staysail can come in handy in light winds when more sail area is needed, in extremely heavy winds when you take down the jib and only a small headsail is needed, or running straight down-wind when you sheet it in all the way to act as a roll-stabalizer. Also, staysails are often self-tending club-footed sails (mounted on a minerature boom), so if you have to short tack a long ways you can take down the jib and then tack repeatedly without having to re-sheet anything. The main disadvantage is that tacking with a jib up becomes more difficult, since the sail has to come back between the cutter stay and the fore stay. This is particulary difficult when using a very large jib.
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Cutter rigs are generally masthead rigs in order to get enough area forward of the mast for the second forestay and sail. A cutter rig allows for more sail combinations to meet changing wind conditions over long cruises. It is also a very balanced rig for offshore cruising. When winds come up, the headsail can be furled and the small inner sail, or staysail, and the main keep the boat balanced and moving in heavy weather. Another benefit to the cutter is that the staysail, on certain designs like the Island Packets, can be put on a self-tacking boom and is controlled by a single line. The sail's draft is set with the outhaul on the boom and stays perfectly trimmed through each tack. A cutter rig is an ideal cruising rig for a shorthanded crew. The downside is that it i a more expensive rig and with a large genoa on the headstay, tacking can be slow coming across the inner forestay. Small compromise for the safety and ease of handling for a couple sailing the world.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing I would add to these is that when using the staysail as a storm jib, you bring the centre of effort towards the mast and keep the boat balanced (small jib and small main, both very close to the mast). With a furled genoa you have a small main near the mast and a small jib area very far forwards thus causing an imbalance in the boat set-up.
The solent rig effectively has two headsails as they are both mounted well forwards (as I understand it), so its great for say trade wind sailing down wind. But it isn't designed to carry both foresails at the same time except on a dead run, and you get the problem noted above of unbalanced rig when heavily reefed.
There is a good discussion here on the exact question you ask:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39750
Jonny
liztate
Member
Inner forestay on a cutter rig can foul a large genoa during a tack. Particularly annoying when sailing short handed as someone has to scurry forward to help the sail across.
Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
Personally, we don't find this to be an issue, as the tack on the genoa is reasonably high, so it rolls around the cutter furling foil quite nicely. Trick is to keep a little pressure on the 'new' sheet to stop it getting caught during the tack and let the old one out all the way to give it some space.
I suspect this largely depends on your exact deck layout and sail shape so will differ boat to boat.
Jonny
I suspect this largely depends on your exact deck layout and sail shape so will differ boat to boat.
Jonny
Spuddy
Well-Known Member
Re: Solent rig
To resurrect someone else's remark.....I thought Solent Rig was main only with engine on.
To resurrect someone else's remark.....I thought Solent Rig was main only with engine on.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Thank you for all the replies so far.
At the moment, Guapa's sloop rigged.
I have 2 genoas - a 140% and a 110%. She's a heavy displacement boat - 13T
Most of the time we carry the 110% - the biggest disadvantage is that in anything less than 12kts of apparent wind we don't so much sail as drift.
Most of the time we sail shorthanded - so frequent sail changes are not really an option.
In lighter winds the 140% genoa does it's stuff, but once apparent wind's more than 15kts that sail becomes too big very quickly. Reefed it's a pain as the boat does not balance well.
If I opt for a Solent rig I could carry both and just use the one most appropriate for the conditions at the time.
If I opt for cutter rig I would most likely get a self-tacking jib - better balance and less work in rough weather.
So, questions regarding cutter rig:
1. What effect does it have on performance in light airs? Bearing in mind our heavy displacement.
2. I've been led to believe a cutter rig would adversely affect performance to windward - is this true?
At the moment, Guapa's sloop rigged.
I have 2 genoas - a 140% and a 110%. She's a heavy displacement boat - 13T
Most of the time we carry the 110% - the biggest disadvantage is that in anything less than 12kts of apparent wind we don't so much sail as drift.
Most of the time we sail shorthanded - so frequent sail changes are not really an option.
In lighter winds the 140% genoa does it's stuff, but once apparent wind's more than 15kts that sail becomes too big very quickly. Reefed it's a pain as the boat does not balance well.
If I opt for a Solent rig I could carry both and just use the one most appropriate for the conditions at the time.
If I opt for cutter rig I would most likely get a self-tacking jib - better balance and less work in rough weather.
So, questions regarding cutter rig:
1. What effect does it have on performance in light airs? Bearing in mind our heavy displacement.
2. I've been led to believe a cutter rig would adversely affect performance to windward - is this true?
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
1. What effect does it have on performance in light airs? Bearing in mind our heavy displacement.
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I don't find a staysail is of much benefit in very light airs. Once you feel a bit of pressure on the helm then the balancing effect is quite useful. I do wander about attaching a light airs sail to where the staysail is fixed though.
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2. I've been led to believe a cutter rig would adversely affect performance to windward - is this true?
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Not sure why. The sheeting angle is much better than a genoa, and it is the genoa (at least on my boat) that luffs first. Will be interested in other people's comments on this.
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1. What effect does it have on performance in light airs? Bearing in mind our heavy displacement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't find a staysail is of much benefit in very light airs. Once you feel a bit of pressure on the helm then the balancing effect is quite useful. I do wander about attaching a light airs sail to where the staysail is fixed though.
[ QUOTE ]
2. I've been led to believe a cutter rig would adversely affect performance to windward - is this true?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure why. The sheeting angle is much better than a genoa, and it is the genoa (at least on my boat) that luffs first. Will be interested in other people's comments on this.
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Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
Genoa luffs first for us. I always thought having two slots would make it more efficient upwind?
My boat (Colvic Countess 37) isn't reknown for its upwind ability - but the staysail will point higher than the genoa. I think as long as the two are parrallel they should be fine.
I think you would have a problem if the genoa was too tight or staysail was too loose causing backwinding of the staysail and a stalled slot between the two.
Jonny
My boat (Colvic Countess 37) isn't reknown for its upwind ability - but the staysail will point higher than the genoa. I think as long as the two are parrallel they should be fine.
I think you would have a problem if the genoa was too tight or staysail was too loose causing backwinding of the staysail and a stalled slot between the two.
Jonny
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
One other consideration Will....
A cutter rig, with a staysail may need a seperate genoa track set further inboard..... unless you go down the boom/self tacker route....
A cutter rig, with a staysail may need a seperate genoa track set further inboard..... unless you go down the boom/self tacker route....
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
One consequence of the increased ease of handling of the cutter rig is that it becomes much more attractve to use hanked-on rather than roller reefing. This means that you invariably have more efficient sails in a blow. A compromise might be a roller-reefed outer jib with a hanked-on staysail. This would give a nice, efficient, flat headsail sail, close to the mast when sailing with a reefed main.
Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
We have seperate tracks on the coach roof for the staysail. You can see the windward staysail track and the leeward genoa in this picture:
Keeping a nice parrallel shape between the two sails seems to be the key to getting the best speed out of them.
Jonny
Keeping a nice parrallel shape between the two sails seems to be the key to getting the best speed out of them.
Jonny
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
Our last boat was cutter rigged, I built her, so my choice, it was a good decision, she was 20t, 44ft and sailed very well in 2-3+. In a gale 2 or 3 reefs in the main and the yankee in bed she was perfect, We had rollers on both h/sails. She went to windward very well, often beating AWBs in heavy winds.
I see she is for sale, the people who bought her off me were delighted with the rig after their circuit, definitely a cutter out of choice. IMHO.
I see she is for sale, the people who bought her off me were delighted with the rig after their circuit, definitely a cutter out of choice. IMHO.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Re "2. I've been led to believe a cutter rig would adversely affect performance to windward - is this true?"
Yes.... Sail with a main and genoa on a cutter rigged boat, trimmed properly going to to windward, and then put up the staysail as well. You'll have to bear away to get all three set right. Offwind a cutter is good, and to windward in strong winds with staysail only is also good, but to windward in light to moderate winds a main/genoa combination is better.
On traditional cutters the outer jib was on a bowsprit and cut very high, so very little interference with the lower staysail. On typical modern main/genoa rigs the two are almost always too close together for efficient windward work.
Yes.... Sail with a main and genoa on a cutter rigged boat, trimmed properly going to to windward, and then put up the staysail as well. You'll have to bear away to get all three set right. Offwind a cutter is good, and to windward in strong winds with staysail only is also good, but to windward in light to moderate winds a main/genoa combination is better.
On traditional cutters the outer jib was on a bowsprit and cut very high, so very little interference with the lower staysail. On typical modern main/genoa rigs the two are almost always too close together for efficient windward work.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Extra tracks on the coachroof work for you - but won't for us.
Even if it could be made to work, it would mean installing extra winches on top of the coachroof. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
If I were to go down the cutter rig route, I would go for a self-tacking jib.
I have yet to sail on a boat that has a self-tacking jib, but have managed to scrounge a ride on a Dehler that's got one.
Other option is going for the Solent rig and the 140 & 110% genoa. Guapa's also got a removable inner forestay. And I have a hank-on staysail to go with it.
Decisions, decisions...
Even if it could be made to work, it would mean installing extra winches on top of the coachroof. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
If I were to go down the cutter rig route, I would go for a self-tacking jib.
I have yet to sail on a boat that has a self-tacking jib, but have managed to scrounge a ride on a Dehler that's got one.
Other option is going for the Solent rig and the 140 & 110% genoa. Guapa's also got a removable inner forestay. And I have a hank-on staysail to go with it.
Decisions, decisions...
Jonny_H
Well-Known Member
We have halyard winches on the coachroof, and the staysail sheets lead back to these.
You do appear to have a problem with track locations ....
Sailed a Dehler with a self tacker (36 CWS) - was very nice, but they do need a large slightly U shaped track on the deck which would get in the way of your hatches and dorade vents.
decisions, decisions indeed!!
Jonny
You do appear to have a problem with track locations ....
Sailed a Dehler with a self tacker (36 CWS) - was very nice, but they do need a large slightly U shaped track on the deck which would get in the way of your hatches and dorade vents.
decisions, decisions indeed!!
Jonny
milfordman
Well-Known Member
I have an Ebbtide 33, which is rigged as a cutter. I do have a large genoa. But I prefer to keep her rigged as a cutter with a working jib on the forestay and the staysail on the inner forestay. The jib and staysail bags were made up to a design I copied from a German boat I saw in Cowes some years ago.
They can be left permanantly attached to the gaurd rails. They are as long as the foot of the sail, and tall enough at the front to be able to be pulled up over the sail when it has been dropped but left hanked onto it's forestay. The front of the sail bag can be pulled together and secured with bungy cord and hooks like mast main sail covers. The top of the bag is split completly along it's length, and can be pulled together with a heavy duty zip. This means that if I decide to reduce sail, by dropping jib or staysail.
1. let go halliard.
2. tighten It's sheet.
3. Go forward and pull up sail bag over hanks (left on stay)
and pull bungy cord into hooks.
4. Re-engage zip and zip up top of bag.
5. Tie off lines to gaurd rail.
As the main sail has 3 reefs, and the staysail has 1 set of reef's, plus the working jib, and a trysail set on a separate track on the mast. This means that I can change down in 6 steps from full main, jib and staysail to reefed staysail and trysail, with out having to take any sails below deck.
They can be left permanantly attached to the gaurd rails. They are as long as the foot of the sail, and tall enough at the front to be able to be pulled up over the sail when it has been dropped but left hanked onto it's forestay. The front of the sail bag can be pulled together and secured with bungy cord and hooks like mast main sail covers. The top of the bag is split completly along it's length, and can be pulled together with a heavy duty zip. This means that if I decide to reduce sail, by dropping jib or staysail.
1. let go halliard.
2. tighten It's sheet.
3. Go forward and pull up sail bag over hanks (left on stay)
and pull bungy cord into hooks.
4. Re-engage zip and zip up top of bag.
5. Tie off lines to gaurd rail.
As the main sail has 3 reefs, and the staysail has 1 set of reef's, plus the working jib, and a trysail set on a separate track on the mast. This means that I can change down in 6 steps from full main, jib and staysail to reefed staysail and trysail, with out having to take any sails below deck.