solar panel recomendations please
- Thread starter ribrage
- Start date
chuckr
New member
a view of our panel setup
gypsy -- the Kyocera are rigid and there is absolutely no flex in them - i kept them low to the bimini so minimal wind can get underneath - i did have to make the bimini support stronger
attached is a pic of ours -- thought i had a better one but could not find it - hope this helps
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in trinidad for hurricane season
gypsy -- the Kyocera are rigid and there is absolutely no flex in them - i kept them low to the bimini so minimal wind can get underneath - i did have to make the bimini support stronger
attached is a pic of ours -- thought i had a better one but could not find it - hope this helps
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in trinidad for hurricane season
grenade
New member
Those panel mounts are exactly what I'm after but crikey, two rail clamps and two 65 cm alu sticks for 70 odd quid? I'll probably make my own.
chuckr
New member
made our own
we did make our own -- just got some stainless steel tubing and a bunch of clamps and fittings - i would make one recommendation through
on the fittings where the tube goes into the right angle fitting - i would drill out where the set screw goes and put in a stainless steel bolt and locking nut - we found in rough seas the set screw was not robust enough to hold the bar in place
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in trinidad for hurricane season
we did make our own -- just got some stainless steel tubing and a bunch of clamps and fittings - i would make one recommendation through
on the fittings where the tube goes into the right angle fitting - i would drill out where the set screw goes and put in a stainless steel bolt and locking nut - we found in rough seas the set screw was not robust enough to hold the bar in place
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in trinidad for hurricane season
Caladh
Well-known member
Not only Solara. I have bought 4 x 48w Sunware semi-flexible panels (now £550 each) over the last 5 years. But I have in the main been pleased with the output. Last year the first one started to de-laminate slightly. Now at the end of this season there is more sigfificant delamination. I approached both Marlec and through them, Sunware. I had sent a pic' of the panel and a note of the serial number. The response is that they require to "see" said panel. The yacht (and therefore the panel) is in Greece and I am in the Uk. I do realise that their 3 year warranty is "up", but for the price we pay for these semi-flex panels you'd think there should be some longevity built in. The sales spec promotes them to be walked on but see this from Marlec-:
"Likely causes of delamination usually come from either; an over flexing of the panel, especially if the bend spans the junction box at the highest point or most commonly from a small indentation on the panel where tiny grit in deck shoes can pierce the clear top material. Over time water will ingress and eventually take the panel out of service."
If there IS an issue where the junction box is situated, then go and re-design it ! In my case the panel never gets walked on as it's just behind the companion-way. I think from now on, cheaper Chinese panels will be the way to go.
pentagram
New member
We use sunware 69watt, and rutland 913 wind genny through a hdri controller
and thy keep up with our power consumption fridge an all!!
and thy keep up with our power consumption fridge an all!!
ribrage
Active member
Ive been fortunate in that i have had a replacement panel , less than a year ago that has now gone faulty, as i have a pair wired together for 24 volt i have returned both the working one and the faulty one and have been offered exchanges in their place.
i have now bought semi flexible panels the same size to fit into the plastic pockets in the awnings, but with more recent tech and a higher out put , i just paid a slightly higher price and coughed up the difference
the wind generator has been doing its thing five years without any attention with moving parts , a solar panel is an inanimate object yet causes me way more trouble , if they go again ill just keep buying petrol for the little generator !!
Caladh
Well-known member
Interstingly I was contacted by Marlec yesterday and was advised they they will talk to Sunware at METS next week about my issue - although don't hold your breath ! I'll report back when I have more information. I also agree that my wind gen. is far less of a problem than the solars......
royburnham
New member
I Came onto this thread looking for answers to similar questions but will probably stick with my first thoughts. I am proposing to buy 2 x 100 watt rigid panels and hang them (9kg) from the livelines port and starboard just off pushpit. I have similar problem for fixing as ketch rigged. I talked to other cruisers using and adding Solar as is becoming quite cheap now and developed my own thoughts for my situation. They are coming from Germany but am sure originate in China and £82 each. They also supply a regulator for just £25 to connect both to and this is cheap compared with fellow cruisers' reports of spending upwards of £150 on a regulator, though the spec of this cheap one looks fine and is PWM technology.....I didn't know what that is til I googled! Fox regulators seem to have a good document explaining regulators (controllers)
I intend making the fittings quick release (including electrical) for storage sailing in bad weather or maybe moving to other parts of the boat when anchored.
Certainly, where I am at present on southern Spanish/Algarve coast I hope to maintain my batteries at full charge (I try to keep electrical loads to a minimum and am replacing interior lights with LED as I find warm white....can't stand cold light in living spaces, with this configuration. Having been anchored for 5 weeks before Christmas I was able to check consumption daily and hope to not need to use the Honda 1000w generator I brought with me for power tools to charge batteries anymore.....petrol is not always close by.
Hope this may help others but interested in any views as I have not placed my order yet!!
I intend making the fittings quick release (including electrical) for storage sailing in bad weather or maybe moving to other parts of the boat when anchored.
Certainly, where I am at present on southern Spanish/Algarve coast I hope to maintain my batteries at full charge (I try to keep electrical loads to a minimum and am replacing interior lights with LED as I find warm white....can't stand cold light in living spaces, with this configuration. Having been anchored for 5 weeks before Christmas I was able to check consumption daily and hope to not need to use the Honda 1000w generator I brought with me for power tools to charge batteries anymore.....petrol is not always close by.
Hope this may help others but interested in any views as I have not placed my order yet!!
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Caladh
Well-known member
Just an update as I see this thread was resurrected recently. Sunware declined to offer me another panel sticking to their 3 year warranty clause. Marlec were sypathetic and offered me a discount on other kit which I needed. However I will not be going down the semi-flexible path any time soon - they are just too expensive for their limited logevity. I will not recommend Sunware panels and I see Solara semi-flexibles appear equally not robust enough for the price.
charles_reed
Active member
I didn't join in the original thread - I've got both semi-flexible Solara and rigid Kyocera on my boat.
The first pair of Kyocera are now 8 years old and are still (on open circuit in series) producing 42.7 volts, the Sunware, after 3 years, have fallen from 37.2 to 28.8.
Whilst I don't think Sunware panels are necessarily an inferior brand, I think all flexible and semi-flexible panels are less long-lived and less effective than rigid panels.
Because I live within striking distance of the European distributor for Kyocera I'm able to get them at prices which make a mockery of those published.
Kyocera panels are now have the highest conversion factor (about 18%) of all PV panels and, though they are not intended for marine use and have no built-in diode have proved (for me) extremely successful.
The first PV panel I had (BP now Solara) was stolen in Malta - when bought it in 1999 all PV panels were extremely expensive - now they're "as cheap as chips" and, with an MPPT controller, a valuable addition to the cruising liveaboards power supply.
However, it's my experience, that PV power is no replacement for effective mains charging and a smart controller on the boat alternator.
MPPT regulators are sold, crudely and inaccurately, as increasing the total output of one's solar panels. Again from experience, they make more effective use of the output (coming in @ 24v nominal my input to the batteries is always 1 volt above resting battery voltage) but my (unregulated) supply from the BP panel was also very effective.
I've never bothered to replace the wind-generator - while that worked OK until it died of old age and saltwater exposure, the relative capital costs of wind-generation (£33/ah) and PV panels (£18/ah) @ 40N, made the replacement uneconomic. The terms have since moved further against wind generation.
As to generators - I do believe that unless one does the job properly with a 1500rpm, soundproofed unit you are an antisocial sailor who is going to have an unexpected and unwelcome capital expenditure somewhere about the 4th year of long-term cruising.
timchapman
N/A
I agree about wind generators. I have one but won't replace it when it wears out. Not good value for money.
Solar is so cheap now there is no excuse for long term cruisers not to have it. It extends the time between running the genny. Be aware that the cost of the panels is only about half the final cost. You have to consider mounting hardware, regulators, cabling, connectors and meters.
I would like to give a bit of balance to the frequent negative comments about 3000rpm generators though. I would love to have a 1500rpm set if I could fit it in and afford it but I can't so I won't. I do have a Fischer Panda 3000rpm set which is now in it's 9th year without fault, I never expected it to last this long. I believe that genny's are one of the things that need nurturing, (like 12V watermakers but that's off topic). Our set is genuinely inaudible from alongside the boat, a faint hum in the cockpit with a bit of water slosh from the exhaust separator. After 9 years of service I think the secrets are;
- Understand the machine, the technology and the installation constraints 100% before considering it.
- Follow the installation rules exactly. Never bend them, (the rules).
- Use it regularly, (2 - 3 times a week or more). Always run it for an hour or more, rarely less.
- Run it at 2/3 of it's rated load. Intelligent combination of battery charging, water-making and water heating makes this straightforward for us. An AC meter showing watts helps.
- Ramp the load up gradually on starting and down gradually before stopping.
- Check the oil and coolant regularly.
- Change the oil every 6 months.
- If you need to crank it a lot to start it close the inlet seacock until it starts! (Only once had to do this).
The above has worked for me but then perhaps I'm lucky.....I would still love a 1500rpm unit though as it can probably handle more mistreatment.
Finally have to add that the best weapon in the power management armoury is an 'off' switch.
Good luck!
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charles_reed
Active member
Tim,
I do think you're the exception with your Fischer Panda - I've seen about 6 of these having an attempted resuscitation, usually between 4-5 years of age. In most cases it appears that the final coup de grace has been electrolytic damage.
Your tip about closing the raw water intake is probably a factor in your unit's longevity. At 9 years of age it owes you nothing.
Whilst they're quiet enough, mechanically, it is the constant splash of the exhaust water that is the sound that aggravates.
Still nothing is as annoying as the big motor yachts that run their generator all night and from which I've suffered over the years in Kinsale, Dartmouth, Ars-en-Re, Nazare, Alcoutim, Varazze, Siracusa, Elafanosos, and Fiskardo (to name a few).
So - peeps with generators - may we never share an anchorage, mooring or port.
I do think you're the exception with your Fischer Panda - I've seen about 6 of these having an attempted resuscitation, usually between 4-5 years of age. In most cases it appears that the final coup de grace has been electrolytic damage.
Your tip about closing the raw water intake is probably a factor in your unit's longevity. At 9 years of age it owes you nothing.
Whilst they're quiet enough, mechanically, it is the constant splash of the exhaust water that is the sound that aggravates.
Still nothing is as annoying as the big motor yachts that run their generator all night and from which I've suffered over the years in Kinsale, Dartmouth, Ars-en-Re, Nazare, Alcoutim, Varazze, Siracusa, Elafanosos, and Fiskardo (to name a few).
So - peeps with generators - may we never share an anchorage, mooring or port.
noelex
Well-known member
It depends on your location, solar wattage and consumption but the goal of solar providing all the boats power is achievable and is quite cheap these days.
We cruise all year around in Med and 95% of our power is from solar.
MPPT controllers do slightly increase the usable output from panels, but the gain is quite small 5-10% the often claimed 30% gain won't be seen on average.
The cheap MPPT controlers are rubbish. If you are getting an MPPT controler make it a good one.
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timchapman
N/A
Ours is fresh water cooled so probably less susceptible to corrosion like the raw water ones. You only hear the exhaust sloshing in the separator inside the boat. Nobody 2m or more from the boat hears anything as the exhaust separator passes the water out through an underwater outlet. In fact I would give a case of beer to anyone who could genuinely hear our genny, or it's exhaust more than 2m from the boat.
Interesting point about noise in anchorages as the genny's that seem to cause the most noise are the petrol ones on the deck, even the expensive 'quiet' ones.
I guess the alternative to a generator is to run the main engine every few days which apart from the well know issues would certainly be heard in the anchorage.
charles_reed
Active member
NoElex
I take your point about MPPT controllers - I couldn't find one this side of the pond which had an adequate spec or an acceptable price - I ended up importing the big BZ from the States. For me the advantage is that it always maintains input volts above system volts.
Certainly I'd query whether the MPPT controllers on sale in Europe will ever justify their incremental cost.
Whether PV power will make you totally independent of any other power source is, surely, dependent on the size of your battery-bank. With a large battery bank one can live with your batteries never being more than part-charged - my boat is space-challenged and the most I've been able to fit in is a total of about 320ah. I suspect the majority of liveaboards are similarly placed - with 1000 ah I'd certainly never need to get batteries charged beyond their 70-80% of full charge.
timchapman
I have little objection to the "micro"-generators most sailboats have - and they seldom run them continuously - the ones that really get me are the 24-hour a day thrum & splash of big boats at anchor or where that can't connect up to an c8Kw supply.
I take your point about MPPT controllers - I couldn't find one this side of the pond which had an adequate spec or an acceptable price - I ended up importing the big BZ from the States. For me the advantage is that it always maintains input volts above system volts.
Certainly I'd query whether the MPPT controllers on sale in Europe will ever justify their incremental cost.
Whether PV power will make you totally independent of any other power source is, surely, dependent on the size of your battery-bank. With a large battery bank one can live with your batteries never being more than part-charged - my boat is space-challenged and the most I've been able to fit in is a total of about 320ah. I suspect the majority of liveaboards are similarly placed - with 1000 ah I'd certainly never need to get batteries charged beyond their 70-80% of full charge.
timchapman
I have little objection to the "micro"-generators most sailboats have - and they seldom run them continuously - the ones that really get me are the 24-hour a day thrum & splash of big boats at anchor or where that can't connect up to an c8Kw supply.
noelex
Well-known member
Most people believe MPPT controllers will boost the solar voltage. There are very few that will do this.
MPPT controlers produce their gain by lowering the solar panel voltage, but converting this lower voltage to higher current.
The battery bank size is not much of factor.
No matter how big the battery bank is the solar panels need to produce more than you consume. The battery bank will even out the good and bad days, but unfortunately no battery bank is big enough to even out winter and summer.
If you are producing more than you use the batteries reach 100% charge quite often. The slow charging produced by the panels is ideal for reaching high battery charge levels.
For the record my battery bank is 400AHrs. there is room for more it was 600AHrs, but there is little value installing the extra 200AHrs.
sailinglegend420
Member
There is a huge benefit in increasing the size of your battery bank.
In the past it was often popular to have two service banks and no starter battery. It was thought a smaller bank would charge quicker. It is much more efficient to have just one large service bank and a much smaller starter battery.
a) Doubling the service bank size means the life cycle is longer as the State of Charge is unlikely to fall so close to 50% so often.
b) Doubling the service bank size also means more than doubling the time needed between re-charging because the “apparent capacity” is greater. Peukert’s law says that the apparent Ah size of a bank changes depending on the current draw.
A bank is designed to deliver a capacity with a current discharge that will flatten the battery in 20 hours. (The 20 hour rate)
So with a 100Ah battery, a 5A load will flatten the battery to 10.5v in 20 hours.
When drawing currents higher than 5 amps the "actual" bank size will be much smaller, so the bank will not last as long. Conversely using much less than 5 amps the bank size will be larger and will deliver more Ah.
If that battery has a Peukert value of 1.3, then higher or lower loads will change the capacity of the battery by the following amounts:
With a 15A load for 20 hours there are only 72Ah's in the bank.
With a 2A load for 20 hours there are 132Ah's in the bank.
c) Doubling the service bank size also means any charging source will be delivering much more than twice as much energy during the “Boost” stage of charging, between 50% and 80% SoC
Batteries charge acceptance falls off very quickly above 80% charge, so one 100 Ah battery that is discharged to 50% may accept 30 Ah in 1 hour and the last 20Ah in 4 hours, a total of 50 Ah in 5 hours. Double the battery size and in the boost stage it will accept 30 Ah into each battery but it will take 2 hours to put in the 60 Ah up to the 80% SoC. The next 40 amps will take 8 hours – a total of ten hours. Note that the initial boost charging stage has captured 60 Ah in two hours but with the smaller bank it could only capture 50Ah in 5 hours. So a bigger bank will accept more Ah more quickly from all charging sources.
noelex
Well-known member
If you do the maths on a system like mine the added benefits of a larger bank are small. The cost per year increases as well weight, and complexity.
The batteries do not generate any power, they can only even out, from day to day, the power the solar panel produces.
More rapid charging is not great advantage of a larger bank with solar because the typical charging currents generated are not high enough for this to be much of of factor. Our solar panels will only be typically generating 20A and much of this will be absorbed running systems.
Even quite a small battery bank will accept this level of charge and when the batteries are reaching 100% the charging current is dropping as the suns elevation decreases.
Pukerts equation is also not much of factor with normal DC domestic loads. The discharge current in relation to the battery size is quite small. For much of the day any discharge cuurent is offset by the solar panel output. Larger appliances, like watermakers, are run when the solar panel output is high. Most of the discharge at night will be under C50 with an average of perhaps C100.
The batteries do not generate any power, they can only even out, from day to day, the power the solar panel produces.
More rapid charging is not great advantage of a larger bank with solar because the typical charging currents generated are not high enough for this to be much of of factor. Our solar panels will only be typically generating 20A and much of this will be absorbed running systems.
Even quite a small battery bank will accept this level of charge and when the batteries are reaching 100% the charging current is dropping as the suns elevation decreases.
Pukerts equation is also not much of factor with normal DC domestic loads. The discharge current in relation to the battery size is quite small. For much of the day any discharge cuurent is offset by the solar panel output. Larger appliances, like watermakers, are run when the solar panel output is high. Most of the discharge at night will be under C50 with an average of perhaps C100.
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sailinglegend420
Member
Unfortunately we don't know what "a system like yours" is because your Profile doesn't include any details. It would be very helpful if ALL posters gave all their details in the profile. We would all have a much easier time trying to answer some of the questions.
My maths does suggest that anything you can do to lengthen the life of your batteries or make them charge faster will be beneficial, no matter what your system is.
